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  #1  
Old 07-11-2011, 11:14 PM
erelsgl Offline
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Default Can God change His mind?

One of the principles of Jewish faith is that God's word in the Tora can never be changed.

On the contrary, I have just read that in Islamic faith, Allah can change His mind, so if there are contradictions between Suras, the later Sura is the one to follow. Is this true?

What does Christian faith say about this? What does Bahai faith say about this?
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  #2  
Old 07-11-2011, 11:27 PM
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God does not change for He is God.. but I do think he has the ability to change His mind on certain things, although perhaps not in the manner you are questioning.

For example, take the story of Jonah for example. God says He is going to destroy a wicked gentile nation due to their evilness. However, since man is given free will, the nation had the ability to repent and turn back from their evil ways.. which they did. And after they repented, God changed His mind and did not destroy them.

But also keep in mind that God is not human, and He doesn't think like humans. I don't believe God literally "changes His mind" like a human being would. Rather His truth is eternal and infinite. If there appears to be contradictions, it is merely because man's search for God is imperfect.
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  #3  
Old 07-11-2011, 11:29 PM
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Well the Bible says that God changed his mind about destroying Ninevah.
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Old 07-12-2011, 12:15 AM
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Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

1 Samuel 15:29

And he who is the Glory of Israel will not lie, nor will he change his mind, for he is not human that he should change his mind!"

but...

Repentance, prayer, and charity can avert the evil decree.
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Last edited by Zardoz; 07-12-2011 at 12:23 AM..
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  #5  
Old 07-12-2011, 12:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erelsgl View Post
One of the principles of Jewish faith is that God's word in the Tora can never be changed.

On the contrary, I have just read that in Islamic faith, Allah can change His mind, so if there are contradictions between Suras, the later Sura is the one to follow. Is this true?

What does Christian faith say about this? What does Bahai faith say about this?

God has been shown to change his mind. But I think you are asking a different question when you say 'can Gods word change'

the written word, once it has been put down in writing, cannot change. The Torah has not changed in thousands of years. The NT writings have not changed either. Gods laws are still his laws. So those things have not changed. But as in the accounts where God has changed his direction, such as the execution of his judgment on Ninevah, he can change the way he manages a situation.
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Old 07-12-2011, 04:36 AM
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I do not think God ever changes his mind... This is not the same as saying that he is unable to change his mind.
However God may say different things at different times or to different people. God's purpose in doing this may well be unclear to us, but that is due to our lack of understanding and not because God Lies.
The Holy books of the Abrahamic faiths Have changed over time, in content, understanding and translation. Religions themselves are not "fixed" but grow and change with our understanding.

Those religions that do not live and grow will die.
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Old 07-12-2011, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erelsgl View Post
One of the principles of Jewish faith is that God's word in the Tora can never be changed. On the contrary, I have just read that in Islamic faith, Allah can change His mind, so if there are contradictions between Suras, the later Sura is the one to follow.
You may wish to rethink this (and, perhaps, reread your Torah).
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  #8  
Old 07-12-2011, 06:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erelsgl View Post
One of the principles of Jewish faith is that God's word in the Tora can never be changed.

On the contrary, I have just read that in Islamic faith, Allah can change His mind, so if there are contradictions between Suras, the later Sura is the one to follow. Is this true?

What does Christian faith say about this? What does Bahai faith say about this?
erersgl, what I believe you are referring to is the "Principle of Abrogation" in the Quran. Let me post extracts:

Quote:
Quranic verses:

Surah 2: 106
"None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"

Surah 16:101
"When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not."

A Muslim scholar and researcher Abil-Kasim Hibat-Allah Ibn-Salama Abi-Nasr noted that of 114 Surahs (chapters) of the Quran, only 43 Surahs were not affected by abrogation, but as the abrogated verses were still inadvertently left undeleted and mixed in with the recently abrogated verses only serious scholastic Islamologists could possibly identify which was which.
Now, "abrogation" of Quranic verses was undertaken by the Prophet Muhammad with the authority of Allah, to update his ideology as circumstances changed for him.
Quote:
THE VERSE OF THE SWORD
The verse that Abrogated (nullified) the 124 Peace Verses.
Surah 9:5 is one of the MOST SIGNIFICANT ABROGATION Verses pronounced by the Prophet Muhammad and is highlighted here because of its importance in its influence of the whole Islamic philosophy and the direction of the Islamic movement.
Hence, we will examine in some detail the cause and effect of this particular abrogation. This is to allow others to examine and delve into the validity of this analysis, with evidence of the verses that were made redundant by the newly introduced verse and its effect on Islamic ideology. Originally, there are 124 versus that called for tolerance and patience that were cancelled/abrogated and replaced by one, single verse. This verse is known as
"The Verse of the SWORD" (Qur'an 9:5):
[9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.6] And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.
[9.7] How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Apostle; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).
[9.8] How (can it be)! while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, nor those of covenant; they please you with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors.
[9.9] They have taken a small price for the communications of Allah, so they turn away from His way; surely evil is it that they do.
I have included the next 4 verses, in order to provide the correct context.
Other Qur'anic Verses that support the verse of the Sword are:
1) Surah 9:14 “Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of believers”.
2) Surah 9:28 “O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque”.

3) Surah 9:30 “The Jews call ‘Uzayr a son of God, and the Christians call Christ the son of God. That is saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate the Unbelievers of old used to say. Allah’s curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!”.
4) Surah 9:73 “O Prophet! Strive hard against the Unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell – an evil refuge indeed”.
5) Surah 9:123 “O ye who believe! Fight the Unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him”.
Some of the verses abrogated by the verse of the Sword:
1) Surah 2:62 “Those who believe (in the Quran), and the Christians and the Sabians – any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve”.
2) Surah 2:109 “Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become manifest unto them: but forgive and overlook, till Allah accomplish his purpose”.
3) Surah 5:13 “But because of their breach of their Covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the Message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them – barring a few – ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind”.
4) Surah 6:70 “Leave alone those who take their religion to be mere play and amusement, and are deceived by the life of this world. But proclaim (to them) this (truth): that every soul delivers itself to ruin by its own acts: it will find for itself no protector or intercessor except Allah: if it offered every ransom, (or reparation), none will be accepted: such is (the end of) those who deliver themselves to ruin by their own acts: they will have for drink (only) boiling water, and for punishment, one most grievous: for they persisted in rejecting Allah”.
5) Surah 8:61 “But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah”.
6) Surah 29:46 “And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury); but say, ‘We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)”.
7) Surah 2:83 “And remember We took a covenant from the Children of Israel (to this effect): worship none but Allah”.
8) Surah 2:139 “Say: Will ye dispute with us about Allah, seeing that He is our Lord and your Lord; that we are responsible for our doings and ye for yours; and that we are sincere (in our faith) in Him?”
9) Surah 2:190 “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.”
10) Surah 2:191 “But do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there”
11) Surah 2:192 “But if they cease, Allah is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful”.
12) Surah 2:256 “But there is no compulsion in religion”.
13) Surah 3:20 “So if they dispute with thee, say: ‘I have submitted my whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me,’ And say to the People of the Book and so to those who are unlearned: ‘do ye (also) submit yourself? If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, thy duty is to convey the Message”.
14) Surah 3:28 “Let not the Believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers; if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourself from them”.
15) Surah 4:63 “Those men – Allah knows what is in their hearts; so keep clear of them, but admonish them, and speak to them a word to reach their souls”.
16) Surah 4:80 “He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah: but if any turn away, we have not sent thee to watch over their (evil deeds)”.
17) Surah 4:81 “But Allah records their nightly (plots): so keep clear of them, and put thy trust in Allah”.
18) Surah 4:84 “Then fight in Allah’s cause – thou art held responsible only for thyself”.
19) Surah 4:90 “Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: therefore, if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (guarantees of ) peace, then Allah hath opened no way for you (to war against them)”.
20) Surah 5:2 “O ye who believe! Violate not the sanctity of the Symbols of Allah, nor of the Sacred Month”.
Other verses that were abrogated by the verse of the sword
(listed for those needing verification): continued:
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Old 07-12-2011, 06:24 AM
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Continuation of above post for those who need authentication and proof:

Quote:
Other verses that were abrogated by the verse of the sword
(listed for those needing verification):
Surah 5: 99
Surah 6: 66; 104; 106- 108; 112; 135; 158
Surah 7:183; 199
Surah 10: 41, 46, 99, 108, 109
Surah 11: 121
Surah 13: 40
Surah 15: 3, 85, 88, 94
Surah 16: 82, 125, 127
Surah 17: 54
Surah 19: 84
Surah 20: 130, 135
Surah 22: 68
Surah 23: 54, 96
Surah 24: 54
Surah 28: 55
Surah 30: 60
Surah 32: 30
Surah 33:48
Surah 34: 25
Surah 39: 15
Surah 41: 34
Surah 42: 6, 15, 48
Surah 43: 83, 89
Surah 44: 59
Surah 45: 14
Surah 46: 35
Surah 50: 39
Surah 52: 48
Surah 53: 29
Surah 58: 8-9, 11
Surah 73: 10
Surah 76: 8
Surah 86: 17
Surah 88: 22- 24
Surah 109: 6
If the Quran is really Allah's words, and as Allah is all-powerful, all-knowing and all-seeing why was it necessary for the Prophet Muhammad to make such a major changes in Allah's original verses (using abrogation)? This raises some doubts of the infallibility of the Quranic verses. [9] [9a]
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Old 07-12-2011, 06:28 AM
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Why is it necessary for you to pollute yet another thread?
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