Free Will (not to be confused with Free Willy) (priest, soul)

[Mr Spinkles]

On another thread, "Seeing into the Future," the issue of free will came up. I would argue that free will is an illusion, because our actions--and in fact our very thoughts--are determined by the firing of neurons on our brains (or more generally, genetics and environment)....not the action of some supernatural Self or Soul. Even the most devout Catholic priest, for example, would have been a Muslim cleric had his genetics or environment been different (say, he grew up in Iran instead of Italy).

In fact, one could even (hypothetically) test whether or not this is true. If it were possible to take two twins with the exact same DNA and expose them to exactly the same environment, the two twins' behavior/decisions should be the same. If their behavior is not the same, then that would be good evidence that something besides genetics and environment has an influence over our decisions.

I believe that similar experiments have been done, and that there is no longer any real dispute that our actions are governed by our genetics and our environment....the real dispute amongst psychologists nowadays is which one (genetics or environment) has a greater influence on our behavior (the "nature vs. nurture" debate).

[Master Vigil]

Didn't they just do tests in Sweden or something on identical twins raised separately, in completely different environments, and never even knowing each other existed... They acted almost exactly alike (I can't remember the percentage, but I do remember it was VERY high.) So they think that its nature more than nurture.

[linwood]

Here we go again.


So explain to me why I chose to do so many things when I was younger that I would never freely do now?

Why just last month I refused my families request for a dog and yet I`m picking up a lab mix this Friday?

Why?

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by linwood

So explain to me why I chose to do so many things when I was younger that I would never freely do now?

Why just last month I refused my families request for a dog and yet I`m picking up a lab mix this Friday?

Why?

I'm sorry, linwood, but my inability to tell an internet friend why he chose to buy a dog in no way provides support for some supernatural Self or Soul that can make neurons fire at its will, though I'm sure you're eager to interpret my ignorance as a victory for some Free-Will-of-the-Gaps.

Bring me twins who have been exposed to identical environments and who exhibit dramatically different behaviors...then we'll talk.

[linwood]

I'm sorry, linwood, but my inability to tell an internet friend why he chose to buy a dog in no way provides support for some supernatural Self or Soul that can make neurons fire at its will, though I'm sure you're eager to interpret my ignorance as a victory for some Free-Will-of-the-Gaps.

Hey I`m just trying to understand what point you`re attempting to make.

I`m just wondering why my nuerons are firing differently this week than they did a couple weeks ago.

Maybe I should see a nuerologist huh?
Yeah, I`d better because if like you say free will doesn`t exist then I must have some weird chemical imbalance going on here.

Thanks Spinks for pointing out a possible detrimental health problem I`m having before it became serious.



However, you know I don`t believe any supernatural entity is responsible for my free will.

[Mr Spinkles]

Originally Posted by linwood

Hey I`m just trying to understand what point you`re attempting to make.

I was naive enough to believe this when I first read it, but then I read the rest of your post and realized you were simply being disingenuous.

Originally Posted by linwood

I`m just wondering why my nuerons are firing differently this week than they did a couple weeks ago.

Because your brain is different than it was a couple of weeks ago. Within that time-span, many connections between neurons have been made, and many have been destroyed. You have processed and stored new experiences and new trains of thought....and you have gotten rid of (forgotten about) old experiences. Your environment has changed as well (even if very subtly)....which means your neurons are recieving different stimulii. In short, your neurons fire differently today than they did two weeks ago because your brain is different.

At any rate, even if I could not offer the above explanation...you'd be a long way from providing evidence for anything other than a free-will-of-the-gaps.

Do you agree or disagree that our behavior is determined by our genetics and our environment?

If you disagree, how do you justify this statement: "However, you know I don`t believe any supernatural entity is responsible for my free will"?

If you agree, how can you argue for free will at all, since both our genetics and our environment are not under our control?

[linwood]

I was naive enough to believe this when I first read it, but then I read the rest of your post and realized you were simply being disingenuous.

I wasn`t being disingenuous, sarcastic yes disingenuous no.

Because your brain is different than it was a couple of weeks ago. Within that time-span, many connections between neurons have been made, and many have been destroyed. You have processed and stored new experiences and new trains of thought....and you have gotten rid of (forgotten about) old experiences.

I still think a dog is a bad idea.
It`ll crap all over the house eat my shoes and shred my canvases but I simply tire of defending my position against the united front the 4 other members of my family have formed (None of whom have actually ever raised a dog before, the I told you so will be sweet).

I agree everyones decisions are chemical actions and reactions within their brains.
I agree those actions and reactions are formed by input from ones environment and will even agree that they are influenced through ones genetics.

However that does not negate the fact that these decisions are free will.

The input I`ve been getting has not changed my thoughts about the outcome of being a dog owner.
The input has just convinced me that it`s not worth the energy to oppose my family anymore.
No neuron fired in my brain to change my opinion just my course of action.

I am literally accpting this dog "against my own will".
I have chosen to override my own will to do so.

I submit I caused the chemical reaction that made me chose the way I did.

If you agree, how can you argue for free will at all, since both our genetics and our environment are not under our control?

My environment isn`t under my control?
I chose almost every aspect of my environment from the time I was 17 years old.
I could choose to be in a completely different tomorrow if I wished.

The way you submit this assertion makes one think that there is no need to do anything because everything one does or will do is predetermined by ones genetics and environment.

Thats just false.

Are you telling me it was predetermined that I would reply to this thread?
I chose to reply to this thread.
Free will.

[Jaiket]

I've read a couple of these threads and for the most part I'm sure I agree with your opinion Spinks. But...

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

Bring me twins who have been exposed to identical environments and who exhibit dramatically different behaviors...then we'll talk.

Is this uncommon?

[t3gah]

Originally Posted by Mr_Spinkles

On another thread, "Seeing into the Future," the issue of free will came up. I would argue that free will is an illusion, because our actions--and in fact our very thoughts--are determined by the firing of neurons on our brains (or more generally, genetics and environment)....not the action of some supernatural Self or Soul. Even the most devout Catholic priest, for example, would have been a Muslim cleric had his genetics or environment been different (say, he grew up in Iran instead of Italy).

In fact, one could even (hypothetically) test whether or not this is true. If it were possible to take two twins with the exact same DNA and expose them to exactly the same environment, the two twins' behavior/decisions should be the same. If their behavior is not the same, then that would be good evidence that something besides genetics and environment has an influence over our decisions.

I believe that similar experiments have been done, and that there is no longer any real dispute that our actions are governed by our genetics and our environment....the real dispute amongst psychologists nowadays is which one (genetics or environment) has a greater influence on our behavior (the "nature vs. nurture" debate).

We only believe that we have control over our own thoughts when in fact according to the bible that is untrue. It says very plainly in the scriptures that God will get his way no matter what. In order to accomplish this in the past God has intervened and altered reality for many people and in some cases he has bent or ignored the laws given to his chosen people so that his goals could be achieved on his time schedule. The very notion or orginating circumstance that has started this who notion of "free will" comes from some "test" God put to the first humans. The facts outweigh the results in this case though and prove that there is no such thing as "free will" because we people have no idea what is in control of our destinies.

God, the almighty and powerful, the most and in fact the infinite intelligence of all time who created the rules, laws and formula's for everything there is just happened to put a tree of "the knowledge of good and bad" in the garden of eden where his two "test subjects", who he created down to the emotions and limits they had toward temptation out of "free will", which people today say was the motivator for their actions, broke the commandment God laid upon them and put the heavens and the world in the state they are now.

I say that this whole thing about "free will" is a term that man has come up with to put into context something they refuse to believe took place. God wanted entertainment and that's why everything has been created according to the bible.

Angels and humans disobeyed. God... made a mistake when creating everything then because they can disobey out of "free will" which God must have created the concept of so that people could and can use this "function" to determine whatever. No, no, there was no "test". What occured was suppose to occur. One look at nature and you can see God's infinite wisdom of "challenges".

So in the end if in fact God is real, what man knows about the human makeup is irrelevant because God caused three days of mental darkness to the whole of Egypt except for his chosen people and circumvented the firing of neurons to the synapse, etc.

There is no such thing as "free will" IMHO.

[No*s]

I would argue the existence of freewill (of course)

The argument I made in the other thread is similar to one Linwood made above. I am a mess of conflicting desires. I can choose to defy my own desires. I can also submit to them. If I were truly mechanical, then I wouldn't be able to do any such thing, but I do.

I don't perceive this as simply a phenomena where the greater desire wins. There are many occasions where I do something that I have a strong desire not to do. In those cases, it wasn't a stronger desire winning out, but my conscious choice.

While I certainly don't believe freewill is absolutely free, I also don't believe it is mechanically determined. The above is part of the reason.

On the twins, I'm not fully informed, but whe I googled I found an interesting article here. It would seem that the article mentions some similarities that would help your side by demonstrating some clear cases where their genetics determine a good bit. It also mentions differences that would help mine where the twins are different despite their genetic make-up.

EDIT:

Deut. proposed a book arguing for determinism a while back, and I'm looking forward to reading it. It should prove to be an interesting read itself.