Animal Sacrifices in religions?

[Copernicus]

Originally Posted by Madhuri

However, I think it is a generalisation to place all forms of sacrifice into this category. If you want to make a point about Christianity, go ahead. But there are forms of sacrifice (like fasting that is meant for the self only) that have nothing to do with 'appeasing' the gods. You can't make this generalisation, is what I'm saying.

My generalization had to do with the origin of animal sacrifice. Self-denial is another form of sacrifice intended to impress deities with strength of devotion. In that kind of sacrifice, you still need to ask yourself why self-denial is more important than, say, self-indulgence. It has to do with establishing a social bond between the worshiper and a deity.

For instance, in Hinduism back in ancient times, people used to undergo severe austerity in order to gain benedictions from the gods. According to some stories, it actually worked, but if you read some of the main scriptures, it actually says that this mentality of spiritual life for selfish purposes is detrimental to spiritual growth and thus is greatly discouraged. The sorts of austerities or 'sacrifices' that are encouraged in Hinduism are for the personal health of spiritual benefit of the individual or for the betterment of society and the environment. Ie/ diet relating to health.

But you admit that this is not a universally accepted point of view. It is just the opinion of some that it ought to be.

So in the case of Hinduism, the deeper reasons are fundamental to understanding the religion, which, when understood properly, can be seen as a religion about individuals designing their own fate and helping themselves to grow rather than there being interference from gods. So I disagree with the generalised nature of your post.

That's fine with me, but I think you have read more into it than I intended. My generalization was an opinion about the original motivation for animal sacrifice, not a criticism of your beliefs about the way in which Hindu scripture approaches sacrifice. After all, Hinduism is not unlike other religions. Its history is very complex, and there are many adherents vying for different interpretations of its true nature. What is really interesting is that animal sacrifice existed everywhere in the world throughout history, not just on the Indian subcontinent. What could account for that?

[Madhuri]

Copernicus, I think the difference in our viewing of this topic is that you are looking at it as a question of why humans do something whereas I am looking at it as why a religion encourages humans to do it.

This is perhaps because you come from a perspective that religions and gods are imagined by man, whereas I come from a perspective that religions hold some value and purpose.

I do agree with you on this: humans have for ever acted in a way that is ego-driven. So worship of the gods through animal sacrifice is one way that I see how humans have done something really stupid for selfish purposes. BUT- if we look at actual major religions and what they tell us to do, things like sacrifice and austerity generally go much deeper than simply pleasing a god.

[Copernicus]

Originally Posted by Madhuri

Copernicus, I think the difference in our viewing of this topic is that you are looking at it as a question of why humans do something whereas I am looking at it as why a religion encourages humans to do it.

When you say "religion" here, I think that you are talking about an ideal that may not really exist. It is really people who do the "encouraging", and those people are pursuing an ideal that is quite often a work in progress. You decide--or a community decides--what the "ideal" should be, and then you reify that ideal when you say "religion encourages" some behavior. One can explain why a religion encourages sacrifice from a historical perspective--in terms of how the religion has changed over time--and that is what I tried to do. One can also explain it in terms of current doctrinal motivation, and I think that is what you are more interested in, regardless of how that motivation came to develop.

This is perhaps because you come from a perspective that religions and gods are imagined by man, whereas I come from a perspective that religions hold some value and purpose.

I haven't ever said that religions have no value or purpose. If they had neither, then they probably would not exist. I believe that they exist because they serve a number of important social functions, although the need for them may be diminishing over time, especially as they lose their ability to explain why nature is the way it is.

I do agree with you on this: humans have for ever acted in a way that is ego-driven. So worship of the gods through animal sacrifice is one way that I see how humans have done something really stupid for selfish purposes. BUT- if we look at actual major religions and what they tell us to do, things like sacrifice and austerity generally go much deeper than simply pleasing a god.

I agree that the motivation for sacrifice has changed, and I even pointed out one way in which it did for Semitic religions--the practice of scapegoating. Scapegoating was seen as a method for eliminating the offense that was causing a god or gods to bring bad fortune to the community of worshipers. In more modern times, self-sacrifice has become an important means of displaying devotion to God.

How can self-sacrifice be viewed as a selfish act? It seems to contradict the very idea of selfishness, but there are times when self-sacrifice is not an unconditional act of loyalty. Indeed, it is usually undertaken with some expectation of reciprocation, if only emotional, on some level. Anyway, I do not view self-sacrifice as purely as most people do. Self-interest is a powerful motivator.

[bain-druie]

I'm not entirely certain of the intent of the OP, which seemed to include eating meat in general, and not only ritual sacrifice - although that may be my mistaken impression, and if so, I apologize. In any event, I'm just going to describe as best I can the attitude of Druids/ earth-based spiritualities toward sacrifice/ eating and hope it's not irrelevant to the OP:

Earth-based religions have the basic attitude that all which lives in this realm also dies; in some sense, every living thing must eat. Eating involves ingesting the materials that belonged to another living creature's physicality in order to gain the nutrients to perpetuate the mechanisms of your own physicality.

Ending the cycle of a lifetime for any creature is a serious, even sacred, act. Every meal is therefore a time of gratitude toward the creatures (plant or animal) that died to nourish those who are eating, and an acknowledgement that one day our physical bodies will in turn nourish their kind, one way or another.

Trying to live in such a way that your life never causes another living thing to die is unrealistic. Eating is not the only way in which we cause the death of other creatures; for instance, bathing kills multitudes of colonies of living creatures on our skin. Medicines kill intruding bacteria or viruses (there is ongoing debate over whether viruses are really 'alive', but bacteria certainly are).

So is it a bad thing to live in a way that intentionally causes the death of other creatures? Not necessarily; it's just realistic. I recognize according to my beliefs that bacteria have as much right to live as I do. But if by some miracle I find a way to completely eradicate a murderous bacteria such as VRSA, would I hesitate? Nope.

That's the way of this realm. These bacteria evolve at astonishing speeds, constantly finding ways to attack us regardless of the defenses we work so hard to erect. That's their way of perpetuating; our way of surviving is to kill them.

From an earth-based religious perspective, the same applies no matter the size or "importance" of an organism. I eat meat and am grateful for it; one day cows will graze in a pasture that grows grasses sprung from seeds that were nourished by earth in which the remains of my current physical form disintegrated. There is nothing morally wrong with any of it; it just is.

There is no point in sacrificing to the Druid gods (who are basically just more highly evolved beings than us, or beings who live on a different plane, etc. depending who you ask); they pretty much go about their own business, and are helpful at times because they choose to be or because it is part of their path to guide us along ours. And there's DEFINITELY no point in sacrificing to Creatorix, because she gave birth to it all, and it all belongs to her/him.

Killing another human being is only more serious because you are killing one of your own, by this philosophy. That's why it has always, as far back as we can find in social situations, been governed by some kind of rule. If and when you do kill a human, you better be sure you have the right to do it, because you will answer to other humans for it as well as to your gods (if you have gods).

Killing animals and plants is also governed by the law of consequences; we're seeing that in our society today. Wholesale murder of forests has its inherent judgments, and those judgments will be carried out in the natural order of things.

So basically, earth-based religions view 'sacrifice' as more about maintaining the overall balance within the established life cycle, than about propitiation. I hope that makes sense.

[Madhuri]

Originally Posted by Copernicus

How can self-sacrifice be viewed as a selfish act?

Self-interest is a powerful motivator.

Exactly. Sacrifice for self-interest. Not that this is necessarily always a bad thing. If the self-interest is related to self-betterment then this is a good thing. But if it is to gain favour from a god/gods, then it is ego-driven.

[Copernicus]

Originally Posted by Madhuri

Exactly. Sacrifice for self-interest. Not that this is necessarily always a bad thing. If the self-interest is related to self-betterment then this is a good thing. But if it is to gain favour from a god/gods, then it is ego-driven.

I think that we are mainly in agreement on this point. I do not see self-sacrifice as a bad thing, but I do not think that it makes much sense in the end if it is unconditional. Individual survival is invested in social survival. We are a social species of animal, and that means that there will inevitably be conflicts between individual and group survival. We all want to survive and prosper as individuals, but we also want our species to survive and prosper. When the two goals come into conflict, the way forward becomes unclear. Religion tends to promote the interests of the collective over those of the individual.