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  #61  
Old 05-14-2011, 03:14 PM
waitasec Offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greyn View Post
not really...

Any religion represented by the Chaplin Corp should be given the opportunity to honor their representative's sacrifice...if they desire to do that.
why?
why not an interfaith fund?

i would be happy to be proven wrong...is their such a thing as an interfaith fund



Quote:
Remember, memorials are for the living, not the dead.
exactly, all the more reason to be a beacon of tolerance
what do you think?
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  #62  
Old 05-14-2011, 03:21 PM
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waitasec - the three memorials in the picture you posted are from three different groups. They are not three memorials specifically for three of the four chaplains who died on the ship. On the memorials you referred to, there are numerous names. On the Catholic memorial, Catholic chaplains are honored. On the Lutheran memorial, Lutheran chaplains are honored.

Various groups sponsored these particular memorials. For some reason unknown to me (and almost certainly unknown to you) no Jewish group, or any other group, came up with the idea to erect a memorial to Jewish chaplains till recently. Now that they have, and the money has been raised (quickly, I might add), the approval process has been pushed ahead of schedule through Congress, supported by all sorts of groups, religious and otherwise, and veterans from all walks of life, and is expected to be fully approved by Memorial Day later this month.

You do seem woefully ignorant of Arlington Cemetery's purpose. Arlington Cemetery itself - the entire thing - is a memorial to ALL veterans. Any veteran who has been honorably discharged or retired can be buried there, with any symbol of his or her faith or lack of faith posted on their headstone.

But you bring up an interesting point. Let's take a look at Dachau - a German concentration camp which was liberated from the Nazis by US troops in 1945. I've actually been there (and will be visiting again in a few weeks, but that's a whole other story!), so I'm pretty familiar with it. Let's look at some of the memorials there.

There are many memorials at Dachau, sponsored and erected by various groups. Here are a few:


Protestant Church of Reconciliation


Catholic Mortal Agony of Christ chapel


Jewish memorial


Now - many members of the clergy were imprisoned, executed and/or died here. They included a patriarch of Serbian Orthodox Church, the founder of the Unitarian Church in the Czech Republic, the founder of the Schoenstadtt Movement, the pastor of the Reformed Church of Rotterdam, a Mariavite minister, several Lutheran ministers, and many Quaker leaders, as well of course as other Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish clergy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_concentration_camp

Nearly all the clergy and church leaders who were imprisoned here were there because of their opposition to the Nazi movement and their involvement in the resistance. They were all heroes who risked their lives (and in many cases, gave their lives) in order to save as many persecuted Jews, and others, as possible.

Is there a monument for every church represented by clergy who suffered and died for others at Dachau?

No.

Is it because of some sort of division or prejudice?

No.

It's because those various groups haven't chosen to raise money, design a memorial, have the plans approved by the historical society which manages Dachau, and actually build the memorial.

However, that doesn't mean their clergy aren't honored. The ENTIRE SITE is a memorial to ALL who suffered and died there. And anyone visiting that place is well aware of that sentiment. There is no sense of division. There is only a sense of a a sad form of unity - the unity of collective human suffering, and human strength and perserverence.

Arlington sends the same message of solemn honor to ALL veterans, regardless of race, color, creed, or religion.
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  #63  
Old 05-14-2011, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by waitasec View Post
why?
why not an interfaith fund?

i would be happy to be proven wrong...is their such a thing as an interfaith fund





exactly, all the more reason to be a beacon of tolerance
what do you think?

You are making some assumptions that an attempt to extend the offer to other communities was not done. If one organization does include individuals of different faiths on their memorials, it may be seen as unneeded, inappropriate or even unwanted. The intentions may be good, but the response may not be positive. As I said before, I think all the religious organizations that you have said are fully capable of putting up a memorial.

On a side, the WWI memorial in Arlington was erected in 1926 and there were mixed christian faiths which was probably no small step in the 20s!

I do agree that the Chaplin Corp does do more in counseling to all faiths in the military no matter what the individual's personal faith. For that purpose, the military should never separate faiths in remembering the service of their Corp.
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  #64  
Old 05-14-2011, 03:40 PM
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Honestly, the irony of this entire thread is inescapable. If you had TRIED, you could hardly find a story, or a place (Arlington Cemetery) which has had more interfaith support and appreciation than the Four Chaplains.

Chapel of Four Chaplains
The Chapel of the Four Chaplains was dedicated on February 3, 1951, by President Harry S. Truman to honor these chaplains of different faiths in the basement of Grace Baptist church in Philadelphia.

In his dedication speech, the President said, “This interfaith shrine... will stand through long generations to teach Americans that as men can die heroically as brothers so should they live together in mutual faith and goodwill.”

In addition to supporting work that exemplifies the idea of Interfaith in Action, recalling the story of the Four Chaplains, the Chapel presents awards to individuals whose work reflects interfaith goals. 1984 was the first time that the award went to a military chaplain team composed of a rabbi, priest, and minister, recalling in a special way the four chaplains themselves, when the Rabbi Louis Parris Hall of Heroes Gold Medallion was presented to Rabbi Arnold Resnicoff; Catholic Priest Fr. George Pucciarelli; and Protestant Minister Danny Wheeler—the three chaplains present at the scene of the 1983 Beirut barracks bombing. The story of these three United States Navy Chaplains was itself memorialized in a Presidential speech (video version) (text version) by President Ronald Reagan, on April 12, 1984.

Memorial foundations
  • The Four Chaplains Memorial Foundation, the only 501(c3) charity related to the Four Chaplains' legacy, is housed at the former U.S. Naval Chapel located at the former South Philadelphia Navy Yard.[39] Its official mission statement is "to further the cause of 'unity without uniformity' by encouraging goodwill and cooperation among all people. The organization achieves its mission by advocating for and honoring people whose deeds symbolize the legacy of the Four Chaplains aboard the U.S.A.T. Dorchester in 1943."
In addition to its other goals and objectives, it supports memorial services that honor the memory of the chaplains and tell their story by publishing Guidelines for Four Chaplains Interfaith Memorial Services. Additionally, it sponsors an "Emergency Chaplains Corps" to provide support for first responders in disaster situations, and scholarship competitions for graduating high school seniors, focusing on the values of "inclusion, cooperation, and unity" exemplified by the Four Chaplains story. The competitions include a National Art Scholarship contest, a National Essay Scholarship contest, and a National Project Lifesaver Scholarship contest.
  • The Immortal Chaplains Foundation was incorporated in October 1997 as a Minnesota non-profit corporation. The original concept for the Foundation was from David Fox, nephew of Chaplain George Fox, and Rosalie Goode Fried, the daughter of Chaplain Alexander Goode. The organization's goal is "to honor individuals, both past and present, whose lives exemplify the compassion of the four 'Immortal Chaplains' and who have risked all to protect others of different faith or ethnicity." The group presents an annual "Prize for Humanity," "to broaden national and international awareness of the legacy of the four 'Immortal Chaplains,'" "to inspire youth to the values of the four 'Immortal Chaplains,'" and "to find new partners and ways to tell this story and preserve the legacy." At the 1999 Award Ceremony, held in Minnesota, South African Bishop Desmond Tutu helped present Prizes for Humanity that included posthumous awards for Amy Biehl, an American Stanford University student and Fulbright scholar who was stabbed to death in South Africa while working to establish a Legal Education Center; and Charles W. David, an African-American Coastguardsman onboard the Coastguard cutter "Commanche," who rescued many of the Dorchester survivors, later dying from pneumonia as a result of his efforts.
Chapels and Sanctuaries
  • Immortal Chaplains Memorial Sanctuary - On the Queen Mary - Long Beach, California - Operated by The Immortal Chaplains Foundation - index - founded by the chaplains' families and survivors of the Dorchester tragedy... including 3 survivors of U-boat 223, which sank the Dorchester on February 3, 1943. (The Queen Mary transported these men to the USA as POWs one year after the sinking of the Dorchester.)
  • The chapel at the Pittsburgh International Airport was dedicated to the four chaplains in 1994.
  • Fort Lewis, Washington, Four Chaplains' Memorial Chapel & Family Life Center.
  • Chapel at Camp Tuckahoe, Boy Scouts of America, in York County, Pennsylvania, dedicated in memory of Chaplain Goode.
Ceremonies and services
Ceremonies and services are held each year on or around the Feb 3 "Four Chaplains Day" by numerous military and civilian groups and organizations. Civitan International, a worldwide volunteer association of service clubs, holds an interfaith Clergy Appreciation Week every year. The event honors the sacrifice of the Four Chaplains by encouraging citizens to thank the clergy that serve their communities. The First Parish Church in Dorchester, Massachusetts (Unitarian Universalist) hosts an ecumenical "Service of the Four Chaplains" each January. The American Legion commemorates the day through services and programs at many posts throughout the nation.

On February 14, 2002, as part of the annual award of the Immortal Chaplains Prize for Humanity, a special reconciliation meeting took place between survivors of both the American and German sides of the sinking of the Dorchester. Kurt Röser and Gerhard Buske, who had been part of the crew of the German U-boat that had torpedoed the Dorchester met with three Dorechester survivors, Ben Epstein, Walter Miller, and David Labadie, as well as Dick Swanson, who had been onboard the Coast Guard Cutter Comanche, escorting the Dorchester's convoy.

On February 3, 2011, the Library of Congress Veterans History Project and the United States Navy Memorial co-hosted a special program at the Memorial, in Washington, D.C.
Four Chaplains - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  #65  
Old 05-14-2011, 03:56 PM
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Here's SOME MORE information about Chaplain's Hill in Arlington Cemetery. (This stuff is really, really easy to check out - that is, if one really wants to know the TRUTH on the matter.)

Visitor Information
Monument And Memorials
Chaplains Hill and Three Monuments
Chaplains from four wars rest on Chaplains Hill in Section 2 of Arlington National Cemetery. Those buried here include: the Army's first Chief of Chaplains, Colonel John T. Axton of World War I; World War II's Chief of Chaplains William A. Arnold, who was the first Chaplain to make General; and Major Charles Joseph Watters who served in Vietnam and was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor for his actions on November 19, 1967. Unarmed, Watters was rendering aid to fallen comrades, disregarding his own safety when he was killed by a bomb explosion.


On May 5, 1926, Chaplains who served in World War I dedicated the Chaplains Monument to twenty-three Chaplains who died in that war. Two quotations are inscribed on the cenotaph: "Greater Love Hath No Man Than This, That A Man Lay Down His Life For His Friends," and "To You From Falling Hands We Throw The Torch - Be Yours To Hold It High."


A memorial to 134 Protestant Chaplains who died in World Wars I and II was dedicated on October 26, 1981 "To The Glory of God And The Memory Of The Chaplains Who Died In Services Of Their Country."

A monument to 83 Catholic Chaplains who died in World War II, Korea, and Vietnam was dedicated on May 21, 1989 in the Memorial Amphitheater. Father William Barragy, the first Chaplain to die in Vietnam is among the names lied on the monument. He was killed on May 4, 1966 in a helicopter crash with twenty men on a mission for the 101st Airborne Division. Father Barragy was posthumously honored with the legion of merit. The monument's inscription: "May God Grant Peace To Them And To The Nation They Served So Well."
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.mil/vis...ment.html'

If you look closely at the picture, you can see that there are numerous names on each memorial - not just one chaplain from the one incident in the OP. Above is the description of each separate memorial.

As you can see, these certain memorials are exclusive in the sense that they are each limited to a particular group of people - in a certain time frame of particular wars. Does this mean that those who don't fall into those categories are LESS valuable, or LESS honored? No - it simply means that certain groups with a particular passion for a particular segment of the Chaplain's Corp raised enough money and support to erect a specific monument.

When you walk around Arlington, you will see numerous specific monuments to specific groups, individuals, wars, etc. Each monument, by it's very nature, "leaves out" other groups or individuals. So what?

Chaplains Hill specifically singles out ALL MILITARY CHAPLAINS separate from other military specialties, corps, etc for specific honor. This INCLUDES Jewish chaplains, and (now) even Wiccan chaplains, since the military now has such. Not sure yet, though, if any Wiccan chaplains have seen any military action, been injured, or killed, while serving. If not, it's probably just a matter of time.
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Kathryn View Post
waitasec - the three memorials in the picture you posted are from three different groups. They are not three memorials specifically for three of the four chaplains who died on the ship. On the memorials you referred to, there are numerous names. On the Catholic memorial, Catholic chaplains are honored. On the Lutheran memorial, Lutheran chaplains are honored.
i get that. what you don't seem to get is there are no interfaith foundations that would ensure all faiths are represented. it's each faith representing itself. how do you reconcile the notion that religious faith unites when all i see it doing is divide people even on this level?


Quote:
Various groups sponsored these particular memorials. For some reason unknown to me (and almost certainly unknown to you) no Jewish group, or any other group, came up with the idea to erect a memorial to Jewish chaplains till recently.
and you're happy with that? seems very suspect.

Quote:
You do seem woefully ignorant of Arlington Cemetery's purpose. Arlington Cemetery itself - the entire thing - is a memorial to ALL veterans. Any veteran who has been honorably discharged or retired can be buried there, with any symbol of his or her faith or lack of faith posted on their headstone.
is this an attempt to wag the dog?
Quote:
But you bring up an interesting point. Let's take a look at Dachau - a German concentration camp which was liberated from the Nazis by US troops in 1945. I've actually been there (and will be visiting again in a few weeks, but that's a whole other story!), so I'm pretty familiar with it. Let's look at some of the memorials there.

There are many memorials at Dachau, sponsored and erected by various groups. Here are a few:


Protestant Church of Reconciliation


Catholic Mortal Agony of Christ chapel


Jewish memorial


Now - many members of the clergy were imprisoned, executed and/or died here. They included a patriarch of Serbian Orthodox Church, the founder of the Unitarian Church in the Czech Republic, the founder of the Schoenstadtt Movement, the pastor of the Reformed Church of Rotterdam, a Mariavite minister, several Lutheran ministers, and many Quaker leaders, as well of course as other Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish clergy.
another attempt to wag the dog
Quote:
Dachau concentration camp - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Nearly all the clergy and church leaders who were imprisoned here were there because of their opposition to the Nazi movement and their involvement in the resistance. They were all heroes who risked their lives (and in many cases, gave their lives) in order to save as many persecuted Jews, and others, as possible.

Is there a monument for every church represented by clergy who suffered and died for others at Dachau?

No.

Is it because of some sort of division or prejudice?

No.

It's because those various groups haven't chosen to raise money, design a memorial, have the plans approved by the historical society which manages Dachau, and actually build the memorial.

However, that doesn't mean their clergy aren't honored. The ENTIRE SITE is a memorial to ALL who suffered and died there. And anyone visiting that place is well aware of that sentiment. There is no sense of division. There is only a sense of a a sad form of unity - the unity of collective human suffering, and human strength and perserverence.

Arlington sends the same message of solemn honor to ALL veterans, regardless of race, color, creed, or religion.
read mein kampf and tell me how hitler used religion to cause division...

no amount of pictures you post will change that fact...
sorry.
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  #67  
Old 05-14-2011, 06:04 PM
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You are making some assumptions that an attempt to extend the offer to other communities was not done.
no i didn't.

Quote:
If one organization does include individuals of different faiths on their memorials, it may be seen as unneeded, inappropriate or even unwanted. The intentions may be good, but the response may not be positive.
gee i wonder why?

Quote:
I do agree that the Chaplin Corp does do more in counseling to all faiths in the military no matter what the individual's personal faith. For that purpose, the military should never separate faiths in remembering the service of their Corp.
agreed...
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:27 PM
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waitasec -

Your OP has been proven to be biased misinformation. Now YOU are putting your own spin on it (ie, wagging the dog), refusing to even acknowledge your brazen, blatant mistakes and misrepresentations. You're obviously making things up as you go along.

Your bias and agenda are obvious. I do not, however, expect you to admit that - you won't even admit how wrong you were about the memorials at Arlington (for instance, it was obvious that you either believed or intended to give the impression that there was a single memorial which left off the name of the Jewish chaplain as some sort of "diss" by Christians - a supposition which was solidly and accurately refuted).

I posted article and link and photo after photo of proof that Arlington Cemetery is chock full of interfaith respect and mutual honor, and yet you continue to insist that somehow it's "wrong" or disprespectful that some group didn't include the Jewish chaplain - when in fact, none of the groups included ANY chaplains except the one affiliated with their particular organization. And no one seemed upset by it - certainly not any Jewish organizations - the very ones which would seem to be the most likely to be upset if indeed there was any sort of insult or slight involved.

You know why? Because with the tiniest bit of research, it is OBVIOUS that there's no need for anyone to be offended.

Now a Jewish group is in the process of having a memorial approved for that very part of Arlington - and not only is there no opposition, there's lots of interfaith excitement about it from various veterans' groups.

I provided proof that there are numerous interfaith organizations and honors organized around the story of the FOUR chaplains - scholarships, places of worship, stamps, philanthropic groups. I am from a miliitary family and grew up hearing the storiy of the four chaplains. On military posts around the world there are memorials to those four men - and none of them are divisive.

Your OP was crap. You've been called out. Don't worry - we all make mistakes sometimes. Just don't let your baggage and your agendas get the better of you - it can lead to embarrassment sometimes.
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:43 PM
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waitasec -

Your OP has been proven to be biased misinformation. Now YOU are putting your own spin on it (ie, wagging the dog), refusing to even acknowledge your brazen, blatant mistakes and misrepresentations. You're obviously making things up as you go along.
no i'm not...is it true that the jewish faith isn't being represented on chapel hill via a monument, a national cemetery?
this is a no brainer...it's a given that all faiths would be represented...
well at least it's a given to some people...

Quote:
Your bias and agenda are obvious. I do not, however, expect you to admit that - you won't even admit how wrong you were about the memorials at Arlington (for instance, it was obvious that you either believed or intended to give the impression that there was a single memorial which left off the name of the Jewish chaplain as some sort of "diss" by Christians - a supposition which was solidly and accurately refuted).
nope. there are 3 memorials...
one honors chaplains killed in World War I, one honors Protestant chaplains, and one Catholic chaplains....and you don't find it odd that there isn't one for the jewish religion...bet you didn't even think about when you where there

i can see there are numerous names on each monument....
please.

if you believe religion unites more than it divides...
prove it.
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Old 05-14-2011, 06:59 PM
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Kathryn reasons that since frubals are so much fun, they probably don't need to be savedKathryn reasons that since frubals are so much fun, they probably don't need to be savedKathryn reasons that since frubals are so much fun, they probably don't need to be savedKathryn reasons that since frubals are so much fun, they probably don't need to be savedKathryn reasons that since frubals are so much fun, they probably don't need to be savedKathryn reasons that since frubals are so much fun, they probably don't need to be savedKathryn reasons that since frubals are so much fun, they probably don't need to be savedKathryn reasons that since frubals are so much fun, they probably don't need to be saved
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I'm not going to waste much time arguing this with you, waitasec. Your OP was full of disenginuous information, and you can't even see it YET. Or just won't - not sure which, but you're wayyyyyyy too blinded by bias for me to put much more effort into this.

There is no memorial on Chaplains Hill regarding the story of the Four Chaplains. If there was, and one was left out - THAT would be a serious omission - but that's not the case at all.

In fact, I challenge you to find evidence of a SINGLE monument, article, anything regarding the story of the Four Chaplains which omits one, or which focuses on division rather than interfaith unity. Just one. That shouldn't be hard. After all, you managed somehow to find the crap story you posted in the OP. Just be sure this time that your evidence is more compelling.

Chaplains Hill at Arlington is a section of the cemetery which honors ALL chaplains - regardless of their particular religious affiliation. Sorry to burst your bubble.
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Last edited by Kathryn; 05-14-2011 at 07:08 PM..
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