Reconciling Providence and Free Will

[Willamena]

Providence is the idea that God guides events in our lives. It ranges from the belief that God's hand is in literally everything, to the idea that certain key events are given a gentle push. Is it your understanding that providence stands in constrast to, or interferes with, free will in any way? Why or why not?

[sandandfoam]

I believe in free will but I also think that freedom is always situated.
I think that when we think of the freedom of our will we often use too short a time frame.

[Onkara]

Originally Posted by Willamena

Providence is the idea that God guides events in our lives. It ranges from the belief that God's hand is in literally everything, to the idea that certain key events are given a gentle push. Is it your understanding that providence stands in constrast to, or interferes with, free will in any way? Why or why not?

Hello Willamena
I have had to deal with this issue is some depth, because of the premise that there is no real "doer" and that everything is being done. So to answer your question I have to say that free will is a question of perspective than fact or thing existing independently by itself.

We think there is free will because we recognise we have made decisions or may have decisions to make. Really these decisions are being made for us, or at least we "are given a gentle push".

Both free will and providence go hand in hand. I say it is a matter of understanding or perspective rather than contradiction.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by Willamena

Providence is the idea that God guides events in our lives. It ranges from the belief that God's hand is in literally everything, to the idea that certain key events are given a gentle push. Is it your understanding that providence stands in constrast to, or interferes with, free will in any way? Why or why not?

I think that the "gentle push" that you mention suggests free will in the same sense that livestock being herded have "free will".

BTW - definition question: for the purposes of this discussion, what does "free will" mean?

- control over one's desires
- the ability to choose an outcome as preferable (whether or not it actually happens)
- the ability to effect a desired outcome
- something else

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Onkara

Hello Willamena
I have had to deal with this issue is some depth, because of the premise that there is no real "doer" and that everything is being done. So to answer your question I have to say that free will is a question of perspective than fact or thing existing independently by itself.

We think there is free will because we recognise we have made decisions or may have decisions to make. Really these decisions are being made for us, or at least we "are given a gentle push".

Both free will and providence go hand in hand. I say it is a matter of understanding or perspective rather than contradiction.

Thank you for your response. I hope this question makes sense: If there's no "doer," just everything done, and there is still perspective, can perspective then not be "cast out" into the world to be a fact or thing existing by itself?

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

I think that the "gentle push" that you mention suggests free will in the same sense that livestock being herded have "free will".

BTW - definition question: for the purposes of this discussion, what does "free will" mean?

- control over one's desires
- the ability to choose an outcome as preferable (whether or not it actually happens)
- the ability to effect a desired outcome
- something else

If one has the ability to choose an outcome as preference, then they have control over their choices, they can affect a desired outcome, including their desires... and probably something else. I'll leave it to others to add to it.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by stephenw

I believe in free will but I also think that freedom is always situated.
I think that when we think of the freedom of our will we often use too short a time frame.

I'm still pondering "too short"... I would say too long!

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

I think that the "gentle push" that you mention suggests free will in the same sense that livestock being herded have "free will".

Do livestock being herded lack free will (presuming they can have it)? There are still choices to be made, even if it's left foot or right foot.

[Onkara]

Originally Posted by Willamena

Thank you for your response. I hope this question makes sense: If there's no "doer," just everything done, and there is still perspective, can perspective then not be "cast out" into the world to be a fact or thing existing by itself?

It is my pleasure to share ideas with you

There is no thing that I am aware of which can exist by itself. Perspective, I would say depends on our investment in it. In other words the more our perspective is supported by our logic and satisfied by our answers the more independent our perspective may appear to be. It is best seen as a tool to help us meet our goals, such as inner peace, truth or answers to life.

The error is to take our perspective as independent, as in doing so we pull the legs away from under it.

Really perspective is as fragile as the logic which supports it. Once the perspective is formed, it then must past the test of debate/scrutiny and daily living . If our perspective is thrown to the wolves, it may survive and help us, similar to a sharpened tool, rather than a biased view which holds us back.

I hope that didn't miss your point.

[sandandfoam]

Originally Posted by Willamena

I'm still pondering "too short"... I would say too long!

I think that in the short term our biology has a big role in how we respond in a given situation.
Over a longer time frame I think (without recourse to the supernatural I'd better add) that as someone said minds use the brain to build the mind. I believe that our minds as distinct from our brains (I think minds are the product of culture (including language) environment and biology) posess free will.