New Jersey Homosexual Partnerships (moral, Sodom, tradition, minority, homosexuality)

[Sir Monks]

Originally Posted by pah

Hey Zeke, take a look at the poll of evangelicals
Not even 100% of them believe homosexual marriage is evil. let alone homosexual acts. Not all the Christians on Religious Forums believe homosexuality is evil.

When you quote "facts" in error right alongside of the Word of God, it makes me think you are making error in what you read in the Bible.

http://www.barna.org/FlexPage.aspx?P...naUpdateID=166
Public Divided On Marriage Amendment
June 21. 2004


(Ventura, CA) - The Southern Baptist Convention recently adopted a resolution supporting the proposed Federal Marriage Amendment. Senate Republicans expect to open floor debate on the issue in mid-July. Television talk shows and political pundits can’t seem to get enough of the issue. But a new nationwide survey conducted by The Barna Group, of Ventura, California, indicates that more than one-third of all adults are not even aware of the amendment. The survey of 1618 adults revealed that 37% of voting-age citizens have never heard of the amendment.
The people groups most likely to be unfamiliar with the existence of the proposed amendment are women (40% unaware), adults under the age of 40 (41%), parents of children under 18 (42%), residents of the South (42%), non-whites (51%), adults not registered to vote (51%), and individuals aligned with a non-Christian faith (45%).
Several population segments were acutely aware of the amendment. Those included gay and lesbian adults (94% aware), evangelicals (89%), Republicans (77%), conservatives (77%), people likely to vote in the November election (76%), college graduates (75%), and residents of California (75%).

There Is No Majority

When the amendment was described to adults, regardless of their prior awareness, opinions were nearly evenly divided. In total, 46% favored the amendment while 44% opposed it and the remaining 10% had no opinion. When people’s opinions were examined by the intensity of their opinion, 35% strongly favored the amendment, 11% possessed moderate support, 31% were strongly opposed and 13% were somewhat opposed.
The strongest support for the amendment came from evangelicals (83%), conservatives (58%), Republicans (56%), Protestants (49%), and non-evangelical born again Christians (47%). At the other end of the spectrum, the segments most fervently opposed to the amendment were liberals (55%), atheists and agnostics (51%), and college graduates (43%).
Among the 37% who were previously unaware of the amendment, upon hearing a description of the amendment 37% said they supported such a change to the Constitution, 45% opposed it, and 18% remained undecided.
The survey also showed that the adults most likely to vote in November favored the amendment by a comfortable margin, 52% to 43%. That margin may not be enough, however, to persuade two-thirds of the members in each house of the Congress to pass the proposal, and then to generate passage in three-quarters of the states.

People Don’t Want Gay Clergy

A similar division of public opinion is nowhere to be found, though, when it comes to the marital leanings of the clergy. By greater than a two-to-one margin, the public is opposed to ordaining practicing homosexuals as clergy. Less than one-quarter of adults (24%) support ordaining ministers who are actively gay, compared to 60% who oppose the idea. One-sixth of the public (16%) was not sure how they felt on this issue.
Generational differences were apparent on this matter. Among Baby Busters (ages 21 to 38) 52% opposed ordaining practicing homosexuals, compared to 63% opposition from Baby Boomers (ages 39 to 57) and 70% of Elders (ages 58 and older).
No segment was more uniformly opposed to gay ordination than evangelicals. Just 2% supported this practice. Among non-evangelical born again Christians, 11% favored ordaining practicing homosexuals. Catholics were nearly twice as comfortable with the idea as Protestants (28% versus 16%, respectively).
There was a substantial degree of inconsistency between people’s support for the Federal Marriage Amendment and its acceptance of ordaining active homosexuals. One out of every eight supporters of the marriage amendment (13%) favored ordaining practicing homosexuals. In a similar vein, almost half of the adults who opposed the amendment also opposed ordaining clergy who were actively gay (42%).
One of the unexpected survey outcomes was discovering that 12% of homosexuals and lesbians opposed ordaining gay clergy and another one-quarter (25%) were not sure how they felt about this matter. That left a surprisingly small majority of gay adults – 64% - in favor of ordaining homosexuals.

Political Points to Score

The survey showed that President Bush has more to gain from supporting the amendment and opposing the ordination of gay clergy than Senator Kerry does by opposing the former and supporting the latter.
Among people likely to vote in the election and who support the President, 54% strongly favor the marriage amendment and 17% strongly oppose it – a gap of 37 percentage points. Among Mr. Kerry’s supporters, a plurality (43%) strongly opposes the amendment and 20% are strongly in favor – a gap of 23 points. Among the undecided voters, 35% strongly support the amendment and 32% strongly oppose it – a difference that is not statistically significant.
Although neither candidate is likely to mention his views on the ordination of gay clergy, 65% of the President’s likely supporters in the November election strongly oppose the ordination of gay clergy while just 4% strongly support it. Among Mr. Kerry’s supporters, on the other hand, only 18% strongly favor gay ordinations while nearly twice as many (33%) strongly oppose it.

Loudest Voices Represent Small Niches

The most vocal constituencies in this battle represent relatively small segments of the population. For instance, the homosexual niche constitutes just 4% of the adult population, of whom 78% oppose the FMA. At the opposite end of the ideological continuum are Christian evangelicals, a group that is 7% of the population, 83% of whom strongly favor the amendment.
Similarly, conservative Republicans are only 15% of the national electorate, but 66% strongly favor the amendment. Likewise, conservative born again Christians – most, but not all of whom are Republican – are 18% of the population, and 72% of them strongly support the amendment. A counterpart niche is liberal Democrats, who number just 7% of the adult population, and among whom 64% strongly oppose the amendment.

Research Source and Methodology

The data in this report are based on a nationwide survey conducted by The Barna Group among 1,618 randomly selected adults during the last week of May. The maximum margin of sampling error associated with the aggregate sample of adults is ±2.4 percentage points at the 95% confidence level. In total, there were 1260 registered voters in the sample, which has a maximum margin of sampling error of ±2.9 percentage points at the 95% confidence level.
People in the 48 continental states were eligible to be interviewed and the distribution of those individuals coincided with the geographic dispersion of the U.S. population. The data were subjected to statistical weighting procedures to calibrate the survey base to national demographic proportions. The survey data were collected through a combination of telephone and online surveys. Households selected for inclusion in the telephone sample received multiple callbacks to increase the probability of including a reliable distribution of qualified individuals.
“Born again Christians” were defined in these surveys as people who said they have made “a personal commitment to Jesus Christ that is still important in their life today” and who also indicated they believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior. Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as “born again.” Being classified as “born again” is not dependent upon church involvement or denominational affiliation.
“Evangelicals” are a subset of born again Christians in Barna surveys. In addition to meeting the born again criteria, evangelicals also meet seven other conditions. Those include saying their faith is very important in their life today; believing they have a personal responsibility to share their religious beliefs about Christ with non-Christians; believing that Satan exists; contending that the Bible is accurate in all that it teaches; believing that eternal salvation is possible only through grace, not works; believing that Jesus Christ lived a sinless life on earth; and describing God as the all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect deity who created the universe and still rules it today. Being classified as an evangelical is not determined by church attendance or denominational affiliation. Respondents were not asked to describe themselves as “evangelical.”
The Barna Group, Ltd., and its research division (The Barna Research Group), is an independent cultural analysis and strategic consulting firm located in Ventura, California. Since 1984, it has been conducting primary research to understand cultural trends related to the values, beliefs, attitudes and behaviors of Americans.

Even this poll says that 78% of homosexuals oppose the FMA....that means that 22% are for it or dont care...that is just as amazing as the other polls that have been posted here
I had to edit the article to fit it in the allowed words....so got to the website to read it all

[Sir Monks]

Originally Posted by Gerani1248

and dont call thier love 'not genuine' either, its as genuine as any couple's love. jeez.

ppl get married because they are in love with each other, not thier bodies...

You really dont believe this to be an absolute. People get married for lots of reason and I would venture to say that there will be many homosexuals that would get married just for the tax breaks or health insurance. The kicker here is that because they are already living in sin the "committment" of marriage doesnt really matter to some of them.

[Pah]

New Jersey Homosexual Partnerships
There Is No Majority

is quite different from

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...&postcount=104

55% against and 37% for same sex

[Sir Monks]

Originally Posted by Irenicas

Zeke, you may not agree with it, but do not belittle it.

Personally, being a happy bisexual man I am all for same sex marriages. By all means express your views. But do not belittle others for their views. Also, back up your evidence - you still have not answered many different queries from other posters. It is only polite to do so.

Please explain, without refering to the Bible, relying only on your own wisdom, what your exact problem is with Homosexuality. Please do not respond in vague generalities - be specific and precise.

Please respond in a sensible, respectful, and logical manner. Logic is a worthy quality in debate - please use it.

I am becoming unsettled and irritated by your bigotry and unpleasant attitude towards other beliefs and faiths. If this continues I will make every effort to have you expelled or reprimanded. It is simply unacceptable.

Thank you.

This is a perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black. Zeke disagrees with you and he is a bigot so you want to have him expelled? Sounds like you are the one who cant carry on a good debate. Speaking out against a sexual perversion isnt bigotry. I dont hate gay people, but I dont agree with their sin. Period end of that story

[Sir Monks]

Originally Posted by Runt

How does marriage make heterosexual couples more happy?

Well it is a committment that is God-ordained and brings a man and a woman closer together were they can consumate their bodies as one and become unified together in the eyes of God and themselves

[Sir Monks]

Originally Posted by Maize

Legal protections and rights that come with marriage. If you don't know what those are, look them up.

And what about Canada? Last I looked the country was still standing despite ending discrimination against same sex couples who wish to have a legal marriage.

I know what some of the benefits are, but what does marriage protect you from? If you know please post

[Sir Monks]

Originally Posted by Maize

Many believe homosexuality is not a choice, including all major professional health care organizations.

What is abhorent to me is those who use their religious beliefs to justify discrimination against a group of people. It was done against African-Americans, and is being done against GLBT people today.

Come on there you go speaking in absolutes - all major health care organizations....please post your proof of this

I am not discriminating against GLBT. I also am not justifying their sexual perversion by allowing them to pervert the sanctity of marriage and tear down the foundation of the family.
If you are getting the sodomy laws overturned in your favor because of it being in the privacy of your own home, then keep it there. I dont want to know about it.

[Sir Monks]

Originally Posted by Runt

Sir Monks--

Again... post all your comments in ONE POST, please. You can distinguish between individual people you wish to quote with: [ quote = "NAME" ] (without spaces) and, rest assured, they will all recognize their name, words, and see you response.


Opinion polls are generally unreliable in determining the feeling of the country of a whole on an issue. General public opinion is often misinterpreted because it depends on those who speak out... and those who speak out the loudest and most vehemently are usually the ones OPPOSED to something, rather than those who are for it. This does not mean that the majority of Americans are against homosexual marriage; it means that the majority of those speaking up about their opinions are against homosexual marriage.

I am replying to each post as I read them...it would take way too much time to post them in 1 post.

ok so you are saying that no opinion polls are worth posting on here, fair enough I will not do it and should expect them not to be posted anywhere on this site to justify one's opinion

[Pah]

Originally Posted by Sir Monks

Well it is a committment that is God-ordained and brings a man and a woman closer together were they can consumate their bodies as one and become unified together in the eyes of God and themselves

The history of the Church belies that opinion of marriage. Protestanism was born and turned marriage over to the civil authorities. The Early Church had no "sacrement" for marriage which didn't appear in the church until the 13th Century or so (I could be in error as to the date but not the fact). The "ordination" is a late-comer in the church and is sectarian emroidary to the civil social customs of the time and place the bible was written.

In fact, services were written and performed for same-sex marriages by the church

Source for the post - Same-sex Unions in Premodern Europe by Joun Boswell, 1994, Villard Books, a division of Random House

[Sir Monks]

Originally Posted by pah

Yes I do

Biological Exuberance by Bruce Bagemhil, Ph.D, St. Martin's Press, 1999 pages 269-663, photographically illustrated
and
Evolution's Rainbow by Joan Roughgarden (the book is on loan and I don't have the publisher but it was published in 2004).

Both books are amply referenced by the studies made..

Wow so thus sayeth these 2 books that now makes homosexuality among animals normal...LOL

Originally Posted by pah

I am not aware of any such effort by the ACLU. Perhaps you can cite the cases they "champion"?.

http://www.aclu.org/ReligiousLiberty...m?ID=9675&c=38
Just 1 of many....you cant be for real if you didnt know that the ACLU is trying to get Christian "adornment" off gov't buildings all over America

Originally Posted by pah

Just as well. I consider that phrase,which was initiated and "bossed along" by a "pious minority", to be a bastardization of the original .

Cool I consider it to be truth and in who this country trust in

Originally Posted by pah

I would go along with prostitution and polygamy as inherient rights of individuals. .

This explains alot about your moral standing and character

Originally Posted by pah

I look forward to a more convincing argument and perhaps with an occasional fact thrown in.

Yeah me too...thanks for playing