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  #21  
Old 01-13-2011, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 1AOA1 View Post
Am I obligated to delve into this?
No, you can leave it unrefuted if you prefer.
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  #22  
Old 01-13-2011, 08:53 PM
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Originally Posted by 1AOA1 View Post
Right right yes. So it is tricking us to love each other because it is evil.
Perhaps he is telling us to love each other to make us believe that he loves us and therefore deceive us into worshiping him because he likes being worshiped.

In fact... to be honest... it doesn't really seem like he cares if we love each other...
all he requires is that we worship him to get into heaven...
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  #23  
Old 01-13-2011, 08:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Hawkins
On the other hand, It seems to me that Christianity never intends to persuade anyone by "making sense" to those humans already lost their senses about God, and not intellegent enough to reason, and not experienced enough to perceive (yet they rely heavily on their lost sense, lacking intelligence and empty experience. I mean rely HEAVILY ON their incapabilities instead of capabilities. hehe...). The whole Bible is a witnessing from mainly the Jews which it is said the God's Elect will choose to believe. It is because only those with faith will be able to make some sense from the contexts to see the true God.

And this atheist behave is very predictable (by the Bible).


Isaiah 6:9
He said, “Go and tell this people:

“‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding;
be ever seeing, but never perceiving.
If the situation were to arise that we couldn't know if it was loving, or omnipotent, but it just it expects you to believe, just because it says so, then it has made itself indistinguishable from any religion that is not true, and wants you to take away all reason because that's the only way you will believe in it. It's also made indistinguishable from a being beyond our understanding that is bad, but wants us to believe it is good, and so asks us to take away all reason so it can tell you to do irrational things, even things which were immoral. Many death cults have said "Just have faith" I don't know how a god can be moral, and ask it's people to do that because it puts them in the mindset that opens them up to manipulation by anyone that says "You have to just have faith and take away all reason" so they can make them do something which was bad. So it's irrational to ask us to believe.

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Originally Posted by Autodidact
I completely agree.
----Lets says some being comes in front of you and does things like walking on water, flying, curing diseases, dying and coming back to life, moving mountains,
accurately prophesying the future , etc...
----NONE of that proves that this being is All Powerful, All Knowing, and All Compassionate ---- All it does prove is that this being is More Powerful, More Knowing, and says absolutely nothing about the 3rd trait.
I know what I just said is nothing new to you...

But this might be...
----In fact, it's impossible for any being to prove All Powerfulness and All Knowingness to another being without making that other being also all powerful and all knowing, therefore it's irrational for this being to expect us to believe it.

----Also, Most important, it's impossible for any being to prove to HIMSELF that he is All Powerful and All Knowing, meaning that he can not know for sure that there is not a more powerful+knowing force than him, even if he created all of everything. He can't be sure that everything he knows is all there is to know and everything he has created is all there exists. So when he claims such things, he is Lying, and also makes him kinda atheist-like (if he accepts that he is all powerful+all knowing when he can't really be sure of that, he is denying faith in the possibility of a greater being than him).
Oh wow, all of that is helpful! It's always good to know if someone can agree with you, and those additional points are very true and illustrates the point further. Thank you so much! These are definitely things that also need to be mentioned when making this argument.

Last edited by Butterfly Christie; 01-13-2011 at 09:14 PM..
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  #24  
Old 01-13-2011, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Butterfly Christie View Post

Though one thing on the point made, how something can't be all knowing. I can't see how that would be probable either, but there also is the point that we can't know what we don't know as humans, so that's looks like something left to the unknown, instead of something I can make a positive claim on.
I'm a bit confused at what you mean... I want to clear it up...
DO you mean:

1) It is not possible that something can be all knowing
OR
2) It is possible that something can be all knowing
OR
3) I can not know if it is possible for something to be all knowing or not


lol i see that you edited this part out of your post...

Last edited by Zelar; 01-13-2011 at 09:24 PM..
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  #25  
Old 01-13-2011, 09:28 PM
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*lol* Yeah I took it back because I see your point

I originally meant number 3, but yeah I don't think it's possible for a mind to know what it doesn't know, so I think a being can't know if it's all-knowing or not.

Last edited by Butterfly Christie; 01-13-2011 at 09:33 PM..
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  #26  
Old 01-13-2011, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Butterfly Christie View Post
Of coarse that's not what I'm saying. We only need to look at con-artists for how they want very much for you to believe they are loving and treat people in every loving way possible accept for the area where they are deceiving people, because their whole scheme depends on people to think they are loving.
Don't con artists want something from us they don't have? Wouldn't an omnipotent bank robber just take what he wants? Isn't the very reason the con artist cons is out of fear of being caught? Isn't the fear of being caught the result of the repercussions which will be brought? If God is afraid of being caught doesn't that mean that we have the potential to punish God? Wouldn't that make us more powerful and uber-omnipotent? Aren't we now incapable of being subjected to God? Arent we then the authority and not God. Didn't we now create ourselves? So we are God? Neat.
Quote:
Con-artists have been able to be exposed because they do it through means that humans can figure out. It's possible there are many con-artists out there that were never caught though. So when you bring into the mix, a being that is so powerful beyond our understanding we wouldn't have a way to see if it's using the same ploy, and whats worse is it can be for reasons that we don't know, and through methods that we don't have a way of knowing.
But we are now God, of course we know. We are now omniscient correct? We are the ones who are in charge, created the universe and are feared. Because there is a punishment for wrong doing we better not catch him because we have more power than it. We made the law. God abides by our rules.


Quote:
Well again omnipotence isn't required for my point to work. Omnipotence means anything is possible for it, so if it did everything we can think of humans may suggest it's omnipotent, but really we wouldn't be able to know because what if it couldn't do something that we can't think of?
Well since I stripped it of its omnipotence, then it is now under my will.

Quote:
My whole point is that we don't know, because there are so many possibilities, including things beyond our comprehension, when we talk about things beyond our understanding.
For us not to know requires that we discard the evidence that we do know correct? Is there anything other than 'the sun could be cold', 'the sky could be falling', houses could be invisible'' 'with remember they could be alive and could be tricking us to believe that they are standing upright'"


I
Quote:
t's a possibility that in some realm that we are not aware of the Sun could be something that we are not aware of, because simply we don't know, what we don't know. The most I can know is that the Sun gives heat in the perception that I am aware of. I can't act on something I don't have evidence for, for example I can't put on a coat when it's 101 degrees outside because of the possibility I described. That's because the possibilities are infinite, there isn't just one possibility when it comes to things we don't know. So there is nothing I can verify, that would give me reason to act on it. That doesn't mean I know the sun absolutely only gives off heat in every form of existence that I'm not aware of.
Doesnt the sun we have evidence for give off heat? Isn't it the one we are talking about? Isn't it the one which is secretly cold?
Quote:
That's the point, the Christian god asks us to believe it is good when we don't know about it.
To believe that it is good, or to come to the realization of good? A con artist asks us to believe that it is good in fear of what would happen if we realize that it wasn't good. God, who fears me, is not more powerful than me correct? If God is love--not have love but is love--where is the room for hate. Are you asking if God is all loving, can it love to hate?



Quote:
We can turn the non-know into a know with the scientific method.
Because we need to know something we do not know correct? It is not a non-know but an unknown with the potential to be known right? A non-know is something which is outside of all knowing. Where is the room for non-know in all know?
Quote:
Not with absolute certainty, but with reasonable certainty with things that are observable, but can the human brain know a non-know while it is not known, no.
Is a non-know knowable or outside of all know? While it is not known implies a time when it can be known? When is a non-known which is outside of all know become known?

Quote:
By it's very definition it's not known. The same with can and cannot, love and hate, the very definitions mean exactly opposite things.
So whats the problem?
Quote:
If it's known, then that means the not-known became a know.
Is a not known a non-known? Wouldn't a not-known have the potential to be known and therefore be a part of all-know, thus knowable and known to an all knowing being?

Quote:
Many con-artist politicians have made laws that were good for the society. It was their very intention to do that so people would believe they were good.
But if you don't follow the law you get punished right? You are confined? So if love is the law for omnipotence and transcendence, and hatred is weakness, God makes a law for us to surpass it ? A con artist politician passes a bill which gives every citizen equal right to stone his house,steal his car, deprive him of food?


Quote:
I'm not saying the being is doing something like this, or isn't. I'm just saying that we don't have a way of knowing it, which means we don't have a way to rationally believe.
We do know correct? It is the very fabric of it's nature? Should we remove love but keep omnipotence? Isn't it what we call love which makes it omnipotent? Would it be rational to believe a person who says that the sun is tricking us to believe that it is cold' with no evidence to counter the evidence that 'the sun actually gives off heat?

Does something automatically become unknown because somebody says something else could be? New York city could be a princess,a television, an automobile ,a lawnmower, a jumping jack, or a giant fish. I've just stated what New York City could be. It is now tricking us into believing it is a city now correct? It is alive but it tricked us into believing in that it is not. I've heard from other people, God could be a turtle, God could be a soap bubble, God could be evil., God could be a con artist. You're not alone. Its the simple fact that the evidence is readily available which makes claims that 'the sun could be cold', dismissible. We can rationally believe that the sun is warm correct?

Quote:
An excellent and very true quote given to me after hearing my argument who went by the name of Kelvar is:

"Possibilities are the bane of the convinced,

and the life blood of the unconvinced."

I think I'll add that to my signature when I'm able to. By the way can someone let me know how many posts I need to be able to have a signature?
Possibilities are always readily available no? My computer could be a salt shaker tricking me into believing that it is a computer + infinity. I'll pass. You are free to believe these things though. I'm not judging

Last edited by 1AOA1; 01-13-2011 at 10:01 PM..
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  #27  
Old 01-13-2011, 10:50 PM
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Originally Posted by 1AOA1 View Post
Don't con artists want something from us they don't have?
This being who claims to be all knowing+powerful does want something from us he
does not have - he wants us to worship him. Why would he want us to worship him? Perhaps he likes to feel all powerful because he realizes he really cant know for sure that he is all powerful. Perhaps he is more like us than we think... only difference between him and us might be that he just has more power and more knowledge, but he has some or all of our "flaws" like insecurity, desire for feelings for grandeur, "(spoiled little brat)-ness", etc..

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Originally Posted by 1AOA1 View Post
Wouldn't an omnipotent bank robber just take what he wants?
He could just force us to worship him, but to him, that may not feel as good as deceiving us to worship him. He would get a greater feeling of power when he tricks someone into worshiping him rather than a robot programmed to worship him and has no other choice than to worship him.



Ultimately, the point is this ---- You can not know for sure if the being you take for GOD is really who he claims to be nor can your know for sure if he is concerned about your best interests, he could be lying, and him telling you he is not lying could also be a lie.

Last edited by Zelar; 01-13-2011 at 10:53 PM..
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  #28  
Old 01-14-2011, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by 1AOA1
Don't con artists want something from us they don't have? Wouldn't an omnipotent bank robber just take what he wants? Isn't the very reason the con artist cons is out of fear of being caught? Isn't the fear of being caught the result of the repercussions which will be brought? If God is afraid of being caught doesn't that mean that we have the potential to punish God? Wouldn't that make us more powerful and uber-omnipotent? Aren't we now incapable of being subjected to God? Arent we then the authority and not God. Didn't we now create ourselves? So we are God? Neat.
Basically what it comes down to is we wouldn't have a way of knowing the being's situation to determine which is more probable, and which isn't, since it would be something so powerful it goes beyond our understanding.

Just like the example Zelar made. Also we make many things that go beyond the understanding of other animals minds, and we could force animals to do what we want, but we can see if they did something willingly it would be better, and I'm sure there is someone out there who loves animals, and would rather do what ever they do to them in a consenting way, but also is misguided in their reasoning, which makes them lead the animals to do something that is not good for them. Like riding horses into unjust wars. I'm sure the riders would reason it's good for them because they are helping with something that they think is just. However if the horses had the ability to reason like we humans do, and knew what was about to happen to them they probably wouldn't agree to well with the rider. Another example is when farmers care for animals, just so they can be slaughtered later and eat them. If the animals about to be eaten knew what was about to happen to them, I'm sure they would high tail it out of there. They probably think their care takers would never let them be chopped to pieces.

However these are just local examples from a limited perspective. When something is beyond our understanding it could be anything that we haven't thought of, or can't comprehend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AOA1
For us not to know requires that we discard the evidence that we do know correct? Is there anything other than 'the sun could be cold', 'the sky could be falling', houses could be invisible'' 'with remember they could be alive and could be tricking us to believe that they are standing upright'"
It looks like you are just trying to make it sound silly, but if it's so silly lets see you explain how you can know what you are not aware of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AOA1
Doesnt the sun we have evidence for give off heat? Isn't it the one we are talking about? Isn't it the one which is secretly cold?
No I never said it was secretly cold. I just explained I don't know what is beyond what I don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AOA1
But if you don't follow the law you get punished right? You are confined?
Con-artists don't think they will be caught.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AOA1
So if love is the law for omnipotence and transcendence, and hatred is weakness, God makes a law for us to surpass it ? A con artist politician passes a bill which gives every citizen equal right to stone his house,steal his car, deprive him of food?
Nope, a con-artist can pass a law that is completely good, and nothing like that. As long as it doesn't interfere with their plan. It will help give people the illusion that they are good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AOA1
We do know correct? It is the very fabric of it's nature? Should we remove love but keep omnipotence?
Again we wouldn't have a way to tell if it was giving us illusions that it was good through means we don't know, and for reasons we don't know, and don't have a way of knowing, or comprehending.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AOA1
Would it be rational to believe a person who says that the sun is tricking us to believe that it is cold' with no evidence to counter the evidence that 'the sun actually gives off heat?
No, and that's not what I was saying. I was saying we don't have a way of knowing things we don't know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AOA1
Does something automatically become unknown because somebody says something else could be?
No, but when more than one possibility exists with something we can't say it has just one possibility, when it doesn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1AOA1
Its the simple fact that the evidence is readily available which makes claims that 'the sun could be cold', dismissible. We can rationally believe that the sun is warm correct?
Yes, we can say it's hot at least within our perception, and the reality that we know. Do we know it's hot in some other form of existance that we don't know about? We'd have to learn about that other form of existence first. Like undiscovered parallel universes. I'm not saying they exist, just that we don't know what we haven't discovered.

Last edited by Butterfly Christie; 01-14-2011 at 01:12 AM..
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  #29  
Old 01-14-2011, 03:12 AM
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Hi! We could address my main point in the argument. The rest was pretty much just elaborating on the main point, so I'd at least just keep the rest of what I said in mind when addressing this. Here it is:

"Even going with the Christian perspective hypothetically, how do we know this is not just a very powerful being, beyond our understanding, who is trying to do something evil and is tricking us into thinking its a good god by giving us illusions that it is a good god, or a god at all, from it's tremendous power that would go beyond our ability to understand it? A very powerful being, who is beyond our understanding, would be very much capable of doing that. So asking us to believe in it and worship this biblical god when its not proving this to us doesn't make any sense. It is irrational for it to demand that we believe and worship it when we don't have a way of knowing this, or if it is telling the truth about itself. This God supposedly is transcendent and is seemingly all powerful from the humanís perspective at least.

In the bible itís described to be omnipotent: (Matthew 19:26 - Matthew 28:18 - Luke 1:37 - 1 John 3:20 - Isaiah 14:24-27 - Revelation 19:6 - Isaiah 46:10 - Mark 10:27 - Luke 18:27 - Job 42:1-2 - Isaiah 55:11 - 1 Kings 8:27)"

Talk about opening up a can of worms, you are claiming the being that appears omnipotent is within your understanding? Remember we are talking about the Abrahamic gods specifically, not a generic Deist-like god. So you know the full inner workings of how he can just speak things into existence, like in Genesis? How a being like that becomes omnipotent. Also you verifiably know that it is the actual creator of the universe, and not just a powerful being beyond our understanding that just appears to humans like it created the universe, but is not telling the truth somehow through means that we don't yet understand? What if it is a being that does know how to make universes because these beings beyond our understanding do it all the time, but this wasn't the actual one who made this universe? There are so many possibilities out there, the list goes on and on. So belief really is an irrational thing to ask us, or in the Christian god's case, demands of us.
why do you think the attribute of omnipotence is beyond our understanding?
also why limit him to this one attribute?
if your willing to trust these ones which say he is omnipotent then why not accept the other attributes? like simplicity,

have you read up on perfect being theology and a maximally great being?

actually your teh one open a can of works, in theology christian theology at least we believe god cannot do the logically impossible. mostly because we find that god can do everything but not non-things.
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  #30  
Old 01-14-2011, 03:16 AM
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For me butterfly your questions are jibberish,

how do i know that the universe wasnt made 5minutes ago with the appearance of age?
how do i know the laws of nature dont change every 5 seconds?
how do i know the world world are clones that are trying to keep a secret from me?
why should i trust anything?

you need a base in which to ask questions butterfly, so maybe if you find something intherently wrong with how we do theology but you havnt seemed to really note any weakness in it, just assurting that we cliam we dont know.
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