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  #21  
Old 07-23-2006, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Booko
For comparison, I find the many exhortations in the Qu'ran to be much clearer: "Believe in God and the Last Day."

Who knows, maybe God had the idea that people would eventually question the worth of Revelation, and had Muhammad give a warning about the subject as well.
Revelation is not the only book in the NT that refers to the last day, end of times, or the apocalypse. We'd be doing just fine without a book that no one has ever understood, except possibly the original audience...
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  #22  
Old 07-24-2006, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Booko
Sheesh, and I forgot to reply directly to the OP!

As for the book:

In Daniel, he is told to seal up the book until the time of the end. This may or may not apply to Revelation, but since they both appear to deal with prophecy concerning the "end time" -- it's no wonder Revelation has historically been so opaque. I wouldn't expect it to make any sense if it is "sealed up" also, and when the time comes, it would probably only be clear to those who manage to see with a spiritual eye (and even then maybe not *very* clear...but just sorta less opaque!)

As for the verse itself, it could be ambiguous. It's kinda hard to "take to heart" something that is so...encoded. And what sort of "near" did the author have in mind? That's been quite a subject of debate. Although, given the numeric references in Revelation that compute to 1260, I have a hard time understanding how 1260 years could be considered exactly imminent. Oh well, that's fodder for another thread probably.

For comparison, I find the many exhortations in the Qu'ran to be much clearer: "Believe in God and the Last Day."

Who knows, maybe God had the idea that people would eventually question the worth of Revelation, and had Muhammad give a warning about the subject as well.
yes it was sealed up untill the last days, but not any more . it certainly is being revealed to those who have insight.
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  #23  
Old 07-24-2006, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous
IMO, the book as a whole should not be in the canon.
Why do you believe that, exactly?
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  #24  
Old 07-24-2006, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Linus
Why do you believe that, exactly?
Historically its inclusion in the canon was questioned at the time of canonization, and as I mentioned before, the church has never understood it.

Why keep something that is hopelessly impossible to interpret?

Besides, the fundies love it so much, and I don't like them, so I'd love to see it go just to make them mad.
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  #25  
Old 07-24-2006, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous
Historically its inclusion in the canon was questioned at the time of canonization, and as I mentioned before, the church has never understood it.

Why keep something that is hopelessly impossible to interpret?

Besides, the fundies love it so much, and I don't like them, so I'd love to see it go just to make them mad.
It's understood by those who have the insight. It was written in a way that those who were ready to understand and be held accountable could understand it and those who were not ready would not understand it.
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  #26  
Old 07-24-2006, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by nutshell
It's understood by those who have the insight. It was written in a way that those who were ready to understand and be held accountable could understand it and those who were not ready would not understand it.
I can both insist that I have insight and that my interpretation is correct. However, that would be dishonest. I don't think that there is a person alive who can claim that they understand that book. There are no authoritative interpretations that I know of...

I agree that it is possible that the first readers understood it, but no one else.

EDIT: It appears then, that the only way to "understand" Revelation is to do so dogmatically. You have to dogmatically be affirmed that you "understand" Revelation the way that other spiritually enlightened folk have "understood it" once these folk certify that you have whatever it takes to be "ready".

That's not an interpretative method, and not evidence that anyone has ever understood it or understands it today.
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Last edited by angellous_evangellous; 07-24-2006 at 01:15 PM.
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  #27  
Old 07-24-2006, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by nutshell
It's understood by those who have the insight. It was written in a way that those who were ready to understand and be held accountable could understand it and those who were not ready would not understand it.

I know of very few people who can honestly say they understand Revelations--my initial reaction when I read it the first time was to wonder what kind of magic mushrooms this guy was eatting. I have read it since several times--I think it was written with the idea that the 2nd coming was imminent--indeed I have been told several of the prophecies probably apply to events that happened in the 1st millenium and have no revelevance to today at all. I never quite understood why it was included in the canon.
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  #28  
Old 07-24-2006, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous
I can both insist that I have insight and that my interpretation is correct. However, that would be dishonest. I don't think that there is a person alive who can claim that they understand that book. There are no authoritative interpretations that I know of...

I agree that it is possible that the first readers understood it, but no one else.

EDIT: It appears then, that the only way to "understand" Revelation is to do so dogmatically. You have to dogmatically be affirmed that you "understand" Revelation the way that other spiritually enlightened folk have "understood it" once these folk certify that you have whatever it takes to be "ready".

That's not an interpretative method, and not evidence that anyone has ever understood it or understands it today.
You simply choose not to recognize the authority it has been interpreted by.
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  #29  
Old 07-24-2006, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by nutshell
You simply choose not to recognize the authority it has been interpreted by.
That's because there is no method.

Why should I accept someone else's dogmatic insistance on the meaning of a text when I can do that myself?
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  #30  
Old 07-24-2006, 01:32 PM
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