Difficult passages (Jesus Christ, contradiction, incarnation, grace, doctrine)

[*Paul*]

I would like us fellow saved by grace through faith alone Christians to address some of the difficult passages of the bible that are often used as proof texts by those who oppose our faith.

I thought this would be a good place to do it as it is a place WHERE OUR POINTS OF VIEW CANNOT BE DEBATED BY NON PROTESTANTS. If we search through the multitudes of threads on here we will find numerous examples of this - I have often been tempted to jump in on these but i have learned that it does little good in the context of debate because people are in stubborn mode.

If anyone tries to debate me i'm sorry but I will ignore you and report your post.

I will post a scripture soon and give an explanation of what I think it means in the context of the passage and the rest of the word of God, unless someone else wants to jump in first.

[slabbey06]

Great idea!

[*Paul*]

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Opponents of the deity of Jesus Christ often point to this passage to show that Jesus cannot possible be God because He is a man, one member of this site was quite thrilled when he discovered this passage.

Obviously the primary meaning of this text is the fact that men lie and God doesn't - that is the point being made.

At the time this was written the Word who was with God and was God had not yet been made flesh - this happened at the incarnation. So if you look at this passage in the context of the time it was written it does not contradict the fact that one day the Word would be made flesh and become a man but one that doesn't lie. This would happen at a particular point in time and a particular place.


St. John 1:1-2 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
St. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Philippians 2:6-8 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

So He became what He was not previously (and without ceasing to be what He was) when He humbled Himself to take on the fashion of a man.

Any other thoughts on this one?

[slabbey06]

My thoughts would be that I agree. Also, I think it's important to take into consideration the Trinity. Is the Numbers passage referring to God the Father, or God the Son? Because the Father did not take on flesh, the Son did. So I see no contradiction here.

[*Paul*]

Originally Posted by slabbey06

My thoughts would be that I agree. Also, I think it's important to take into consideration the Trinity. Is the Numbers passage referring to God the Father, or God the Son? Because the Father did not take on flesh, the Son did. So I see no contradiction here.

That's very true Slabbey but it get's confusing when debating it with a non-trinitarian because they say that this proves that there is no trinity and the discussion becomes circualr, but this is a classic example of a scripture that has it's meaning butchered because the point that is being made is that God doesn't lie like men do, he qualifies what he means by man by saying "that he should lie."
I would say that it does mean God the Father though that's a good point Slabbey.

[joeboonda]

Even though the theme and teaching of the Trinity are all throughout the Bible, people will argue against it just because of the sheer almost impossibility of the human mind to wrap around it. Even we do not understand it fully, but we accept it as God's Word teaches it. It is usually folks who do not want to ascribe deity to Christ, or who want to separate the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit into three different gods, so they may propulgate their doctrine of more gods or that god attained godhood and we may too, etc. Pulling Christ down from being God always is a result of man trying to bring himself closer to being God, although our being Sons of God are solely because of God's unmerited favor toward us because of his great love. Three persons there are in the Trinity, and the one in the middle died for me.

[Sola*5]

Matthew, Chapter 7001:Judge not, that ye be not judged.002:For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I think this passage is worth looking at in the context of the whole chapter and what the rest of the bible says on the subject - after all it is the same SPirit that wrote the whole book.

[slabbey06]

Originally Posted by Sola*5

Matthew, Chapter 7001:Judge not, that ye be not judged.002:For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

I think this passage is worth looking at in the context of the whole chapter and what the rest of the bible says on the subject - after all it is the same SPirit that wrote the whole book.

I was just reading this passage this morning and thinking about what it means to "judge." It definitely needs to be taken in context. What I don't think this verse means is that we can never tell people that certain things are wrong and if you practice them you are sinning. I'm wondering if "judging" has to do with our attitude and motives.

[Sola*5]

Originally Posted by slabbey06

I was just reading this passage this morning and thinking about what it means to "judge." It definitely needs to be taken in context. What I don't think this verse means is that we can never tell people that certain things are wrong and if you practice them you are sinning. I'm wondering if "judging" has to do with our attitude and motives.

I agree with you very much Slabbey, alsoI really feel that the message of the bible and this chapter is to not judge hypocritically, we are given instruction to judge in many places, but we are to check ourselves first that we are not guilty of the same thing. It seems such a clear teaching, examples of the uses of scripture listed by Paul are reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness. Titus is told to rebuke sharply. We are told not to associate with one who is called a brother who is also a fornicator. Putting these things into practice today always follows with a chorus of "Judge not", it has become a mantra of those who want to escape responsibility and correction.

At least thats what I think.

[slabbey06]

Originally Posted by Sola*5

I agree with you very much Slabbey, alsoI really feel that the message of the bible and this chapter is to not judge hypocritically, we are given instruction to judge in many places, but we are to check ourselves first that we are not guilty of the same thing. It seems such a clear teaching, examples of the uses of scripture listed by Paul are reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness. Titus is told to rebuke sharply. We are told not to associate with one who is called a brother who is also a fornicator. Putting these things into practice today always follows with a chorus of "Judge not", it has become a mantra of those who want to escape responsibility and correction.

At least thats what I think.

Frubals to you. I believe that in the world we live in today, when we take a stand for truth of sin, often people interpret that as being "judgmental" because it's offensive to them and let's face it...we don't like being confronted with it.
*This is not to say that we don't speak the truth in love though.*