Collateral Murder

[Bismillah]

The point of this debate has long diverged from its original purpose and it is my view that nothing new will be gleaned of it. It has come to represent, in my mind, the renewal of decades long oppression of the Iraqi people at the hands of an indifferent and often times brutal U.S government with the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Like it or not, the blood of all these innocents stains the hands of every American politician and American who does not speak out against the treatment of these people.

[dmgdnooc]

Originally Posted by Mestemia

Wait, so you are telling me that you are basing your whole argument on an arbitrary comment in an article written for security of Europe?
Seriously?
Hells bells, there is absolutely nothing in the article about how or where they got their number.

It is nothing more than a side comment to help bolster the urgency of security.

Surely you have not based your entire emotional rant on that one single off hand comment?

I referred you to the document that enunciates the European Union's approved security strategy, and expected you to be able to google from there. Fail, eh?
　
It is not 'an article' or 'single off-hand comment', it is the EU's highest level policy document and was drafted under the responsibility of Javier Solana. It has been approved by the European Parliament as the base on which the EU's security measures are founded.
That is why I styled it as a 'reputable source'.
　
You could also have googled and found many estimates of the ratio of civilian casualties in the conflict in Iraq. You would have found many published figures from various other reputable sources that put the figure between 60 and 80 percent. And if you had read them you would have found that they are estimates of the casualties in the 'shooting' war.
　
However I confidently apply the 90% figure to the overall conflict on the basis of the additional (and only civilian) casualties of the sanctions campaign.
　
I can see now that you need to be carefully spoon-fed and led by the hand.
My apologies for over-estimating you.

[Mestemia]

Originally Posted by dmgdnooc

I referred you to the document that enunciates the European Union's approved security strategy, and expected you to be able to google from there. Fail, eh?

Fail?
I am not going to do your homework.
So if there is a fail here, it will be yours.
For not dong your own homework.
　

Originally Posted by dmgdnooc

It is not 'an article' or 'single off-hand comment', it is the EU's highest level policy document and was drafted under the responsibility of Javier Solana. It has been approved by the European Parliament as the base on which the EU's security measures are founded.
That is why I styled it as a 'reputable source'.

It is nothing more than a second hand comment made out of the blue in a sad attempt to help bolster the point of the articles main goal.

Now if that is something you consider a reputable source....
　

Originally Posted by dmgdnooc

You could also have googled and found many estimates of the ratio of civilian casualties in the conflict in Iraq. You would have found many published figures from various other reputable sources that put the figure between 60 and 80 percent. And if you had read them you would have found that they are estimates of the casualties in the 'shooting' war.
　
However I confidently apply the 90% figure to the overall conflict on the basis of the additional (and only civilian) casualties of the sanctions campaign.
　
I can see now that you need to be carefully spoon-fed and led by the hand.
My apologies for over-estimating you.

I can see that you are merely going to make unsubstantiated claims and then claim that it is every one else who is responsible for doing your homework.

Your sad attempt at childish insult is rather comical, but it does nothing to help your credibility.

Now since it is obvious that your sources are extremely questionable at best and just flat out ratification at worst, I shall leave you to fly back to your flock claiming victory.

[kai]

Originally Posted by Abibi

The point of this debate has long diverged from its original purpose and it is my view that nothing new will be gleaned of it. It has come to represent, in my mind, the renewal of decades long oppression of the Iraqi people at the hands of an indifferent and often times brutal U.S government with the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Like it or not, the blood of all these innocents stains the hands of every American politician and American who does not speak out against the treatment of these people.

Except that the US government doesn't rule Iraq, Iraqis do US withdrawal is taking place, and everyone should be aware if not actually speaking out, of the horrendous difficulties the Iraqis have to face on a daily basis in that country

[MSI64]

The Iraq War documents leak is the unsanctioned disclosure of a collection of 391,832 United States Army field reports, also called the Iraq War Logs, of the Iraq War from 2004 to 2009 to several international media organizations and published on the Internet by WikiLeaks on 22 October 2010. The files record 66,081 civilian deaths out of 109,000 recorded deaths.


The Iraq Body Count project (IBC) figure of 94,902 — 103,549 civilian deaths reported in English-language media (including Arabic media translated into English) up to December 2009 includes civilian deaths due to coalition and insurgent military action, sectarian violence and increased criminal violence.

the figures vary wildly and cannot be verified properly.

[Dezzie]

Originally Posted by Alceste

I watched it. Infuriating. Makes me wish I believed in hell so I could be reassured that the entire US military will be going there to roast for all eternity.

Well this comment is a little much don't you think? I would hope you don't mean EVERY person in the US Military... I am in the US Military and I would never act the way these people supposedly did in this video... I certainly do not deserve to "roast" in Hell, as you yourself has put it.

Originally Posted by Alceste

If, on the other hand, you think war is actually about teams of armed men fighting one another for noble causes, you do need to watch this. It'll help rectify your ignorance.

I agree with this statement.

I didn't actually watch the video because I am at work. I can't watch it here since youtube is blocked, but it sounds completely horrifying... I don't know if I want to watch it either...

[dallas1125]

Originally Posted by Dezzie

I didn't actually watch the video because I am at work. I can't watch it here since youtube is blocked, but it sounds completely horrifying... I don't know if I want to watch it either...

Its a bigger deal than it should be. It was a tragic incident but it was blown way out of proportion, just like the ground zero mosque. I highly recommend the unedited version too.

[Bismillah]

Except that the US government doesn't rule Iraq, Iraqis do US withdrawal is taking place, and everyone should be aware if not actually speaking out, of the horrendous difficulties the Iraqis have to face on a daily basis in that country

That doesn't mean anything in the end game does it kai? Innocents still died for nothing more than warmongering and any attempts to go "look look democracy" does not detract from their suffering and continual suffering.

MS164: The reason body counts are so vague is because the U.S government decided not to tally up the Iraqi dead for public use.

[kai]

Originally Posted by Abibi

That doesn't mean anything in the end game does it kai? Innocents still died for nothing more than warmongering and any attempts to go "look look democracy" does not detract from their suffering and continual suffering.

What is the end game for the insurgency Abibi ? The continuing murder of Iraqis by Iraqis doesn't detract from the suffering of the Iraqis and doesnt bode well for the future
MS164: The reason body counts are so vague is because the U.S government decided not to tally up the Iraqi dead for public use.

Last year over 1000 policemen were killed 2,635 people were killed in bombings averaging 2 a day which counted for 66 % of all civilian deaths, there were 113 civilian deaths by US/Iraqi forces.

and some sources quote that as the lowest since the invasion.

i think its obvious what Iraqis are dealing with here is a systematic killing brought on by their brothers and sisters in the ummah executing and blowing to pieces their own people for quasi political reasons.

Civilian deaths from violence in 2010 :: Iraq Body Count

the US does tally up the Iraqi dead just as various other sources do. what amazes me is the lack of realisation or acceptance of how many Muslims in Iraq are killed by fellow Muslims.

[fatima_bintu_islam]

I read the fist pages of the thread and what I noticed was a bit strange :

In the beginning everyone was against the video, shouting against it etc .. And at the very first moment a Muslim came and said , yea US soldiers suck, everyone turned against him !!

It remind me of a golden rule which is adressed to Muslims but Non-Muslims could try to use it too : Quran ( 4 : 135)

135. O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allah is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allah is Ever Well-Acquainted with what you do.

I have to say that objectivity is a real lacking trait in this thread, no offense meant