Personal liberty versus the greater good (choices, choice, America, religion)

[Wandered Off]

In another thread, people were arguing about how irresponsible people in the West and in the US particularly were living wastefully and having a disproportionate impact on the environment. From what I can tell, this is the thinking behind initiatives like the recently defeated measure in California to allow electric companies to control the thermostats in people's houses.

Senator Obama was quoted as saying this:

"We can't drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times ... and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK. That's not leadership. That's not going to happen

source

Where do others see this heading? Will people call for having governments restrict our habits? Yes, I realize the Senator didn't propose government intervention in this quotation, but I get the sense that this is the direction. Should I have a say in what kind of car you can drive or what kind of light bulbs you use? Your diet? Do you worry about whether people in other countries think your thermostat setting is OK? If there's a line, where is it or where should it be?

[NoahideHiker]

IMHO personal freedom IS the greater good. With freedoms come personal responsibility. Many have a problem with this concept because they have a negative view of humanity and don't think that the common man is capable of being responsible and that the common man is of lower intelligence than they are. When we have politicians take away the responsibilities of our freedoms it changes the attitude of freedoms and rights to entitlement (EXAMPLE: the current mortgage situation many are in).

Less government + more freedom = peace + happiness

[lilithu]

There's no need for govt to regulate people's thermostats or to legislate what kind of car we can drive. All we have to do is stop subsidizing the fossil fuel industries and ensure that oil cost as much to buy as it does to produce and use. Make the price reflect the actual cost, and people can decide how much they want to use. My only concern is for lower income families who cannot afford to buy hybrid cars and whose govts have been too short-sighted to build effective public transportation systems. They need to be compensated in some way for the increased costs.

In the bigger picture, I agree with NoahideHiker that with freedom comes personal responsibility. It's funny how we can agree on that basic premise go in completely different directions with it.

For me, personal liberty is not the ultimate goal for its own sake. Personal liberty is a goal because the ultimate goal is justice. In the vast majority of personal choices it is unjust for the govt to impose itself on you - who you marry, what religion you practice, what you're allowed to think and say, etc - so this country emphasizes liberty. But your liberty is limited to the extent that it impacts someone else negatively. The most obvious examples being that you aren't "free" to hurt someone else or take his or her stuff for your own gain. (Well, theoretically anyway.) Personal liberty is subordinate to justice.

It's harder to see with things like global climate change. I'm a Californian (always will be no matter how long I live on the East coast). I love driving for the sake of driving, and the main reason for that is because of the sense of freedom that I get. With a full tank of gas, I feel like I can go anywhere thats connected to a road. And who am I hurting as long as I can afford the gas? But if we look at the hard facts: Americans use 25% of the world's consumption of fossil fuels every year even tho we constitute only 5% of the world's population. We give off 25% of the world's green house gas pollutants. With the freedom to pollute comes the responsibility to clean up after ourselves.

We don't need the govt to regulate our thermostats. That falls under our domain of personal liberty. But we do need to be accountable to the choices that we make, which means that for whatever we use, we pay the real cost - the cost that includes clean up.

[PureX]

The purpose of having a government is for it to act as the mediator between personal self-interest and the health and safety of society as a whole. The purpose of government is NOT to maximize freedom. Anarchy would maximize freedom. The government's function is to establish equal rights and freedoms for all citizens, by balancing them against each other, and by balancing them against the needs of society as a whole.

Less government just means less government. It does not lead to any utopia. Less government leads eventually to anarchy and chaos. Too much government leads to oppression and abuse. So the ideal is a balance of oversight intended to protect citizens from each other as a whole, while freeing them as much as possible as individuals.

[GeneCosta]

I don't see liberty and the greater good in conflict. However, freedom can be taken to mean freedom to kill, murder, rape, steal, and exploit.

[mball1297]

There is a delicate balance, and a fine line between too much government control and not enough. The government needs to regulate some things. We can't be totally free and have a productive society. If things like temperature control get out of hand, and are shown to have extremely negative effects on the environment, then maybe regulating them to a certain degree would be a good idea. The problem is that every little thing these days is seen as an attack on our freedom. As has been said here, not letting you murder people is an attack on your freedom too, but people kind of like that rule.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by mball1297

The problem is that every little thing these days is seen as an attack on our freedom.

I'd say that the wrong things are seen as an attack on our freedom. We seem to have no problem with the Patriot Act and allowing govt to spy on us, take away free speech and freedom of assembly, and due process. But dare someone even suggest that we have some responsibility for the consequences of our wasteful lifestyles and people are up in arms about "freedom."

It seems then that "freedom" means the freedom to buy and use stuff without consequences.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by NoahideHiker

IMHO personal freedom IS the greater good. With freedoms come personal responsibility.

Agreed.