Religious Affiliations of the American Founding Fathers (Jesus, Creator, gospel)

[lilithu]

Repeatedly it has been asserted that the U.S. is a Christian nation because it was founded upon Christian principles. As evidence to support this it's claimed that the majority of our founding fathers were Christian. Those who disagree usually respond by saying that majority of our founding fathers were Deists. Honestly, I could go either way on this. It seems more like a semanitic argument than anything else. Were our founding fathers influenced by the religious systems in which they grew up? Most certainly. Were most of them raised in the Christian tradition? Most certainly. Is there evidence that several of them turned away from traditional Christianity in favor of a more Deist view? Yes, lots of evidence. Could it be argued that the principles embodied within our founding documents are humanist principles that our founders would have come to regardless of their religious affiliations? Yes, definately.

But anyway it keeps coming up and repeatedly the numbers from a particular web site are cited:

Religious Affiliation of Founding Fathers
Episcopalian/Anglican 88 54.7%
Presbyterian 30 18.6%
Congregationalist 27 16.8%
Quaker 7 4.3%
Dutch Reformed/German Reformed 6 3.7%
Lutheran 5 3.1%
Catholic 3 1.9%
Huguenot 3 1.9%
Unitarian 3 1.9%
Methodist 2 1.2%
Calvinist 1 0.6%
TOTAL204
www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

The site says it counts 204 founding fathers based on who signed the DoI, the Articles of the Confederation, and the Constitution. Now... this strikes me as the easiest but nonetheless stupid way to decide who counts as a "founding father." We all know that some people lead and influence and others follow and just because someone was elected to be a delegate at the Constitional convention does not mean that he had any ideas of his own. The only thing these stats reflect is the religious makeup of the fledgeling nation at the time. Not that of the true founding fathers, ie - those who laid down the principles upon which this country is based.

So... my challenge to you is: name who you consider to be a founding father (OR mother) and give your reasons why (s)he qualifies. Then, not that I'm assuming that we can reach a consensus, maybe we can look at the recorded religious affiliations of these people.

I'll start:
Thomas Jefferson - wrote the Declaration of Independance, 3rd president

John Adams - helped Jefferson craft the DoI, abolitionist, 2nd president

Ben Franklin - helped Jefferson craft the DoI, publisher, scholar, diplomat, abolitionist...

James Madison - contributor to the federalist papers, father of our Constitution, greatest proponent of religious liberty, 4th president

Jon Jay - contributor to the federalist papers

Alexander Hamilton - contributor to the federalist papers

George Mason - father of the bill of rights

Next??

[Booko]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Repeatedly it has been asserted that the U.S. is a Christian nation because it was founded upon Christian principles.

I think you could make a stronger case that the U.S. is a freemason nation because it was founded on freemason principles.

If memory serves, all but one of the Founding Dads were freemasons, and the symbolism of freemasonry is all over the early history of our nation.

While I'd be terribly surprised if there weren't influence from Christianity, it seems odd that if this was supposed to be a Christian nation, there isn't even mention of God in the Constitution, and certainly no mention of Jesus.

Even in the Declaration, Franklin was insistent on a change from "God-given rights" to "inalienable rights" specifically because it smacked too much of religion. That one mention of a generic "Creator" in the Declaration is as far as he or Jefferson would go.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Booko

I think you could make a stronger case that the U.S. is a freemason nation because it was founded on freemason principles.

If I were to argue this, I would say that the U.S. was founded on humanist principles. The freemasons may have had humanist principles but they did not invent them. (And by humanist I do not mean atheist or anti-religious. Rather, religion becomes irrelevant.)

Originally Posted by Booko

Even in the Declaration, Franklin was insistent on a change from "God-given rights" to "inalienable rights" specifically because it smacked too much of religion. That one mention of a generic "Creator" in the Declaration is as far as he or Jefferson would go.

by Jim Allison

Many people point to the Declaration of Independence as proof of Thomas Jefferson's intentions to create a "Christian nation." In fact, there is nothing in his original draft of the Declaration of Independence to indicate such intentions.

The evolution of the text of the Declaration of Independence regarding the use of the word "Creator" began with the quill of Thomas Jefferson, was discussed with and shown or submitted to John Adams and probably Benjamin Franklin. There were two other members of the "Committee of Five" but there is no historical evidence to show what, if any input they might have had. It was then submitted to Congress.

The original version as written by Jefferson no longer exists but has been reconstructed from various copies that do exist as follows with regards to the topic:

We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable, that all men are created equal and independent; that from that equal creation they derive in rights inherent and unalienables, among which are the preservation of life, and liberty and the pursuit of happiness; . . .

In the Adams copy, written, sometime between June 11 and June 28, in his own (J. Adams) handwriting we have the following:

We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal and independent; that from that equal creation they derive in rights inherent and unalienables, among which are the preservation of life, and liberty and the pursuit of happiness; . . .

Sometime later, but before being submitted to Congress, the above was changed to the following:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. . . .

Though many other changes were made in the rest of the document, Congress accepted those lines for the finished Declaration.

The mystery, if there is a mystery pertains to the change from this "We hold these truths to be sacred and undeniable, that all men are created equal and independent;. . . " to this "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,. . . "

To sum what is known:

• The original version Jefferson wrote did not contain the word Creator.
• A copy that John Adams wrote in his own hand did not contain the word creator
• At some point after Jefferson wrote the original draft and before it was submitted to Congress it was changed to the wording with regards to creator that we know today

There are several possibilities

1. Jefferson changed his mind and reworded it to what we know today
2. The change was suggested by Adams.
3. The change was suggested by Franklin.
4. The change was suggested by both Adams and Franklin.
5. The change was suggested by one or both of the other two members of the committee of five or all four of them that was given the task of producing this document.

http://candst.tripod.com/doitj.htm

Personally, I thought Adams' suggestion of "self-evident" was a stroke of genius.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by lilithu

If I were to argue this, I would say that the U.S. was founded on humanist principles. The freemasons may have had humanist principles but they did not invent them. (And by humanist I do not mean atheist or anti-religious. Rather, religion becomes irrelevant.)

Oh, I agree completely. It's just much easier to point to the freemasonry for an example, as there are so many visible signs of that influence.

I mean, there's Washington wearing his little apron thingy (among other things), but you don't see him wielding Christian symbols in paintings from the time.



If the intent was to create a Christian nation -- why no mention of Christ? Why no Christian symbols?

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Booko

If the intent was to create a Christian nation -- why no mention of Christ? Why no Christian symbols?

Yeah, I don't think the intent of the key founding fathers was to create a Christian nation.

But I also don't think (and here I am not arguing with you but with others from past arguments) that they were necessarily atheist and/or anti-Christian. I think it was their intent to create a nation where no one would be persecuted based on their religion, and to argue that that means that most of them were not Christian (as if that was their motivation) doesn't give them enough credit, I think. For example, my hero James Madison, our greatest defender of religious liberty: I think that he considered himself Anglican/Episcopalian, because that's what his family was and he never renounced that faith. There isn't any evidence of that in his writings, and at one time he considered the seminary. BUT he thought it patently unfair that Baptists in Virginia should be treated as second-class citizens just because they weren't Anglican. And when he had convinced the other VA lawmakers to not discriminate against different Christian sects he expanded his argument to the "Hindoo" and the "Mohammadean." And he kept arguing until they agreed that no one in Virgina would be discriminated against based on any faith or lack thereof.

I guess I made my own thread obsolete because what I'm really saying is that the religious affiliation of the founding fathers is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if they were pre-dominantly Christian or Deist. That argument assumes that they were acting only in self-interest. They were humanists. They believed in equality no matter what the faith tradition. (race and gender etc would have to come later...but they set the ground for that) I think they're pretty cool.

------
What are the freemasons anyway? Always seemed like an old boys network with silly symbols that served no other purpose than to indicate they were part of the club.

[!Fluffy!]

Many people point to the Declaration of Independence as proof of Thomas Jefferson's intentions to create a "Christian nation."

Really. Who? Hard to believe many people would believe such of Thomas Jefferson...

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Moon Woman

Really. Who? Hard to believe many people would believe such of Thomas Jefferson...

Well he certainly wasn't a Christian in the traditional sense, tho he did revere the teachings of Jesus:

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814


And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823


I'd say that Jefferson was greatly influenced by Jesus and did want to establish a country that honored the teachings of Jesus. But he wasn't trying to establish a Christian nation.

[RevOxley_501]

you forgot the masons

[NoahideHiker]

America is not a christian nation simply because the majority of the founding fathers were christians. It was founded a free nation where all religions were free to be practiced. Yes they do site the Judao/Christian G-d as THE god but this does not exclude others.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by RevOxley_501

you forgot the masons

Freemasons? George Mason? I have George on the list. My list was not meant to be comprehensive, just to get the ball rolling. Obviously George Washington and Thomas Paine are missing.