abdul rahman (Jesus, moral, punishment, reject, Messiah)

[robtex]

I justed wanted to get people's input on this issue. Rahman was arrested in Afghanistan for converting to Christianity. Many of the locals wanted him put to death for the conversion but Italy offered him asylum and he is living there as of date. I wanted to get RF's thoughts on it in general and specifically on a few things:

1) Should he have been tried for switching and if found guilty what is a reasonable punishment?

2) It is amoral to put people on trial for their beliefs, when no other crime (such as assult murder theft ect) accompanies the action. Meaning if the only "crime" is a belief is it amoral to hold them legally and crimminally liable? And if so under what circumstances.

3) If Allah is the one true God (mostly a question for muslims), does he have any chance at salvation after accepting Christ (pbuh) the prophet as his savior, and if so under what circumstances and conditions?

footnotes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_(convert)

[kevmicsmi]

Originally Posted by robtex

I justed wanted to get people's input on this issue. Rahman was arrested in Afghanistan for converting to Christianity. Many of the locals wanted him put to death for the conversion but Italy offered him asylum and he is living there as of date. I wanted to get RF's thoughts on it in general and specifically on a few things:

1) Should he have been tried for switching and if found guilty what is a reasonable punishment?

Great topic Rob, I actually wish the man would have been tried, instead of the cop out we saw from the court. I think it is crucial for issues like these to be brought to the forefront so a free society can be developed. I wish the judge would have had courage to last this trial out, and give no punishment, or throw the case out entirely. The debate would have been a welcome process in a nation that has a chance to become free.

[Green Gaia]

We had a Muslim guest speaker at my church this past Sunday. He described this incident in Afghanistan as completely against what Islam is about. After all, according to the Qur'an, it was Allah who said through the Prophet (pbuh) "Let there be no compulsion in religion." Meaning, whoever wishes to accept Islam may do so and whoever wishes to not believe may do so. No one should be threatened or harmed in any way if he does not wish to accept Islam.

It was interesting to hear our guest speaker refer to America as the greatest Muslim nation in the world because we do not force people to accept one religion. (Although some of us were questioning if that is really true here, but he made his point about so-called Muslim nations missing the point of what it means to be Muslim.)

Sorry, I didn't answer any of your questions, Rob.

[robtex]

Originally Posted by Maize

Sorry, I didn't answer any of your questions, Rob.

I just put specific questions on there for those that wanted to comment but need some direction to forumlate responses. I was hoping this thread would be more of an RF roundtable on the politcal incident. Great post. I have muslim friends here in Austin (austin is likely one of the most plural relgious cities in the USA), and I would think they might contest your Islamic's friend's post. I may ask them later this week.

[Nehustan]

Originally Posted by robtex

I justed wanted to get people's input on this issue. Rahman was arrested in Afghanistan for converting to Christianity. Many of the locals wanted him put to death for the conversion but Italy offered him asylum and he is living there as of date. I wanted to get RF's thoughts on it in general and specifically on a few things:

1) Should he have been tried for switching and if found guilty what is a reasonable punishment?

2) It is amoral to put people on trial for their beliefs, when no other crime (such as assult murder theft ect) accompanies the action. Meaning if the only "crime" is a belief is it amoral to hold them legally and crimminally liable? And if so under what circumstances.

3) If Allah is the one true God (mostly a question for muslims), does he have any chance at salvation after accepting Christ (pbuh) the prophet as his savior, and if so under what circumstances and conditions?

footnotes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_(convert)

I'll have a shot at answering the questions you pose to the best of my ability...

1) Should he have been tried for switching and if found guilty what is a reasonable punishment?

This very much depends on the situation, intention, and implication of the 'offence' under Islamic jurisprudence. If the change was a private matter with no social or political implications then the situation is less important, this said if it was a 'private matter' no one would know about it. I believe the index 'offence' was having found in his possesion a copy of the Bible, certainly not a crime in Islam, I often carry my rather lovely calfskin KJV around with me. If the 'private matter' became sedition and by implication treason against the Nation of Islam (Ummah), the penalty would be judged in accordance to the severity of the situation and the intention, which would be apparent by the person's activity. Given that many of our bretheren/sisteren are of limited education, the severity of an educated person using that tool to stir up public feeling and/or cause division (fitnah) could be considered VERY seriously, and the punishment would be graded to fit the severity of the crime.

2) It is amoral to put people on trial for their beliefs, when no other crime (such as assult murder theft ect) accompanies the action. Meaning if the only "crime" is a belief is it amoral to hold them legally and crimminally liable? And if so under what circumstances.

Sedition, Treason, aiding and abetting the enemy, undermining the political process (executive, legislative, judicial).

3) If Allah is the one true God (mostly a question for muslims), does he have any chance at salvation after accepting Christ (pbuh) the prophet as his savior, and if so under what circumstances and conditions?

God sees into our hearts and knows our intention and motivation better than we know it ourself. If his rejection is based on actions/words from believers around him, then may Allah have understanding and mercy, and cause such behaviours to diminish within the Ummah. Accepting Jesus as the messiah is a tenet of Islam and not incompatible with Islam. If the brother never realised the subtleties of Tawheed, then may Allah be merciful to allow a measure of the faith and creed at least equal to a grain of sand to remain in his heart, as Allah has promised ultimately to save those from the fire who retain this much faith. This said it is often said that all humans are born in submission to the infinite and absolute (fitrah), so God willing He may even find a grain of sand remaining in people who never thought they believed.

Allah Alim.

[Nehustan]

Originally Posted by Maize

We had a Muslim guest speaker at my church this past Sunday. He described this incident in Afghanistan as completely against what Islam is about. After all, according to the Qur'an, it was Allah who said through the Prophet (pbuh) "Let there be no compulsion in religion." Meaning, whoever wishes to accept Islam may do so and whoever wishes to not believe may do so. No one should be threatened or harmed in any way if he does not wish to accept Islam.

It was interesting to hear our guest speaker refer to America as the greatest Muslim nation in the world because we do not force people to accept one religion. (Although some of us were questioning if that is really true here, but he made his point about so-called Muslim nations missing the point of what it means to be Muslim.)

Sorry, I didn't answer any of your questions, Rob.

A very good ayat (2:256) which follows one of the most mystical in the Quran, ayat al Kursi (2:255). The full quote is...

Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem

Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Sura Al-Baqara, 2:256

this said...there is compulsion in the socio-political, and in the case of Islam, theological legislative structure...it's commonly called the rule of law, secular countries also possess it.

[Jaiket]

Originally Posted by robtex

1) Should he have been tried for switching

No.

Originally Posted by robtex

2) It is amoral to put people on trial for their beliefs..

Amoral? For me, no. It is as unethical as I can imagine.

[rosewater]

There is ample evidence that Islamic Law does not suggest persecution to apostates, let alone extermination. Such rulings have sprung out of lack of articulate examination of Islam among some traditional groups of Muslims. Nowhere, in the QURAN there is a command to kill the apostate of ISLAM. Moreover, there is no compulsion in accepting Islam according to the Quran. During the time of Prophet Muhammad many apostates faced natural deaths. One instance during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad is after the death of an apostate, they buried him but the earth would spit the body out in refusal. They would find the perons body lying outside every morning after burial. This is only one instance of an apostate dying naturally. Death sentences were only issued to the treasons committed during the wartime of Islam which obviously had apostacy accompanied with the act. Treasons during wartime meant the apostate knew the secrets of the Islamic army. Also, death sentences were issued for highway robbery that accompanied murder and apostates here again seemed to be in the picture. The knowledge that comes from Hadiths (teachings of Prophet Muhammad based on testimony) need to be carefullly examined for authenticity.

[greatcalgarian]

I think this is a political incident, nothing to do with religion.