Sad Story, did the man really had said that he has a bomb? (moral, choice)

[greatcalgarian]

Originally Posted by Ryan2065

Yes.. because this is a far greater tragedy than 9/11 ever was....

No one is answering my questions... I'll post them in an easier format for you all...

1. Do you believe the Air Marshals believed Alpizar had a bomb and was a threat to everyone around them?
I can take it that the Air Marshals 'believed' Alpizar ahd a bomb, but that was not a threat to the those on the plane, if Alpizar is allowed to leave the airplane and arrested or stop outside the plane or outside the airport busy area.
2. What do you think they should have done in this situation if they did believe him to be a threat?
They should negotiate with him in the usual way as dealing with terrorists on a plane in the air, try to calm the person down, try to distract his attention, try to pin him down, so as to be able to get to the bomb to diffuse the bomb.
3. Do you believe the Air Marshals should have ran after someone who they thought had a bomb?
Yes.
4. Do you believe the Air Marshals should shoot and kill someone reaching for what they believe to be a bomb?
NO NO NO. What happen if the bomb is automatically detonated upon impact when that shot person collapsed? What about if the shooting only injured, and the person find time to detonate the bomb?
5. Do you believe that this would have happened if the man was on his medication?
The question of medication does not come into the situation. There are many hot tempered persons (perfectly mentally healthy), who may have quarreled with the wife and stomped off like what Alpizar did.
6. Who is more at fault here, the man for being irresponsible and not taking his medication, or the Air Marshals for stopping what they percieved to be a threat to themselves and others on the plane.
There are not enough facts for a conclusion to be reached. The main bone of contention is whether the Air Marshals acted correctly with the limited information of interaction they observed within that short frame of time, whether the Air Marshals already have some preconceive idea of if some one behave like Alpizar, he is definitely having a bomb, and also depends on what are adequate good instructions to the Air Marshals regarding situation like this.

I don't really see much difference between this story and a story where a police officer accidently shoots someone for reaching for, what they think to be a gun, but really is a cell phone. When someone identifies themselves as law enforcement and pulls a gun on you, you should do as they say.

I do not think many people support this "police officer accidently shoots someone for reaching for, what they think to be a gun,"

[ChrisP]

Yes.. because this is a far greater tragedy than 9/11 ever was....

No one is answering my questions... I'll post them in an easier format for you all...

1. Do you believe the Air Marshals believed Alpizar had a bomb and was a threat to everyone around them? I don't know, I wouldn't care to make a judgement without being there. All I can say is, if I had been a marshall, I would have used something non lethal, as if the bomb went off everyone would die anyway
2. What do you think they should have done in this situation if they did believe him to be a threat? As above
3. Do you believe the Air Marshals should have ran after someone who they thought had a bomb? Yes
4. Do you believe the Air Marshals should shoot and kill someone reaching for what they believe to be a bomb? Yes, but I don't think they had justification to 'believe' in this case.
5. Do you believe that this would have happened if the man was on his medication? I don't know.
6. Who is more at fault here, the man for being irresponsible and not taking his medication, or the Air Marshals for stopping what they percieved to be a threat to themselves and others on the plane. Both parties are equally responsible.

I don't really see much difference between this story and a story where a police officer accidently shoots someone for reaching for, what they think to be a gun, but really is a cell phone. When someone identifies themselves as law enforcement and pulls a gun on you, you should do as they say

[Seyorni]

If the "bomb" had gone off they would have had to make extensive repairs to the loading ramp. The flight would have been further delayed and the passengers arrived late at their destinations.

When did they start calling loading ramps "jetways?" I guess I'm out of touch.

[Pardus]

Originally Posted by Ryan2065

Yes.. because this is a far greater tragedy than 9/11 ever was....

Exactly, because there was no reason for this death.

[Ryan2065]

Originally Posted by greatcalgarian

I am not very convince that the Air Marshals heard positively that the man has a bomb. I do however believe that the Air Marshals may have formed that opinion from the action and behavior of the man, which may have been wrongly construed.

So what exactly can someone do besides say they have a bomb to make an Air Marshal believe they have a bomb, break cover, and pull their guns on him?

Originally Posted by greatcalgarian

This could have been the wrong type of training the Air Marshals received. Remember, there were only over 30 Air Marshall prior to 9/11, and after that, the number jumped to very very high, the recruit and training may not be that good for these new batches, and these two are new recruits.

Huh? There is only so much training someone can go through... Also, wouldn't someone then just act like they are insanse to set off the bomb? If someone is trying to act insane, psychologists have a hard time telling them apart from the people who are not insanse, how would someone who wasn't as well trained as a psychologist be able to tell them apart?

Originally Posted by greatcalgarian

My point in this posting is simply not to accuse the Air Marshal action of shooting, but the background leading to the shooting, and how we can improve on that.

Yes, we can improve on that by realizing that if you have a mental illness and you can become a danger to society or yourself if you do not take the medication for your illness, bad things can happen to you (death is one of them.)

Originally Posted by greatcalgarian

Several postings keep blaming the man for not taking his medication really saddened me.......I just could not stand people trying to put the blame on some one who is dead and cannot defend themselves.

So because the man died means he could have done no wrong at all?

Originally Posted by greatcalgarian

I do not agree that failure to take the medication is a justifiable ticket for the Air Marshall to shoot him dead.

Its not a justifiable ticket for anyone to get killed.. but if you have a mental illness and knowingly do not take your pills and endanger your own life and the lives of others...

Originally Posted by greatcalgarian

I do not think many people support this "police officer accidently shoots someone for reaching for, what they think to be a gun,"

I am confused, you do not believe this story parallels when a police officer shoots someone because they think they have a gun (when they don't) or you believe police officers should be held responsible for shooting people they believe to have a gun but they are really just reaching for a cell phone?

Originally Posted by SnaleSpace

I don't know, I wouldn't care to make a judgement without being there. All I can say is, if I had been a marshall, I would have used something non lethal, as if the bomb went off everyone would die anyway

I sure hope that other peoples lives are never in your hands if you take the approach of "if the bomb went off everyone would die anyway, so why kill the man who is threatening everyone?"

Originally Posted by Snalespace

Yes, but I don't think they had justification to 'believe' in this case.

Lets recap... The man was acting weird to others... The Air Marshals believed he had a bomb... When the Air Marshals confronted him, the man ran away... The man reached into a bag as he was running away with what the Air Marshals believed to be a bomb...

What else could the man have done to make the Air Marshals believe he had a bomb short of show them the bomb? (remember, they believed he said he had a bomb)

Originally Posted by Seyorni

If the "bomb" had gone off they would have had to make extensive repairs to the loading ramp. The flight would have been further delayed and the passengers arrived late at their destinations.

When did they start calling loading ramps "jetways?" I guess I'm out of touch.

The man was running towards the terminal... The Air Marshals decided to take him down before he got into a crowded area (like the terminal.) Do you suggest they should have let the man they believed to have a bomb make it to the termainal?

Originally Posted by Pardus

Exactly, because there was no reason for this death.

So an Air Marshals kills a man who he believes has a bomb and believes that he will blow it up and kill many people is more tragic than terrorists killing thousands of innocent people in a direct attack on America?

[Ryan2065]

From the articles about this man it seems he was in a state of Mania... Here are some things that happen when a man is in a state of Mania...

http://www.dbsalliance.org/info/bipolar.html

Symptoms of mania - the "highs" of bipolar disorder

• Increased physical and mental activity and energy
  
• Heightened mood, exaggerated optimism and self-confidence
  
• Excessive irritability, aggressive behavior
  
• Decreased need for sleep without experiencing fatigue
  
• Grandiose delusions, inflated sense of self-importance
  
• Racing speech, racing thoughts, flight of ideas
  
• Impulsiveness, poor judgment, distractibility
  
• Reckless behavior
  
• In the most severe cases, delusions and hallucinations
  

I bolded the things that show that this man should have taken his medication espically before going on a plane... This does not warrant someone shooting him.. but it should make you think he might have done the wrong thing in the situation he was in and due to that got himself killed...

[ChrisP]

Originally Posted by Ryan2065

From the articles about this man it seems he was in a state of Mania... Here are some things that happen when a man is in a state of Mania...

http://www.dbsalliance.org/info/bipolar.html
I bolded the things that show that this man should have taken his medication espically before going on a plane... This does not warrant someone shooting him.. but it should make you think he might have done the wrong thing in the situation he was in and due to that got himself killed...

I am well aware of what someone does in a state of mania. I still don't see how it would be preceived as a threat. If you wanted to blow up the plane. You'd blow up the plane.

[Ryan2065]

Originally Posted by SnaleSpace

I am well aware of what someone does in a state of mania. I still don't see how it would be preceived as a threat. If you wanted to blow up the plane. You'd blow up the plane.

So basically you are saying to get rid of Air Marshals, because if you are going to blow up the plane, you are going to blow up the plane?

I posted what someone does in a state of mania not to show that they might blow up a plane in that state, but to show that they wouldn't exactly react normally when put in a situation where law enforcement is pointing a gun at you and telling you to get down. He acted guilty by running.

[greatcalgarian]

Huh? There is only so much training someone can go through...

Obviously these two may not have seriously gone through the detail training
http://www.ice.gov/graphics/fams/training.htm

Phase II training is dedicated to providing FAM candidates with the knowledge, skills and abilities specifically applicable to the environment in which they will perform their duties. Emphasis is placed on developing advanced firearms and defensive techniques proficiency, advanced operational tactics, strength conditioning and aerobic training, aircraft systems emergency procedures and legal and administrative protocols. Candidates who successfully complete Phase II have demonstrated the ability to carry out the duties and tasks necessary to fulfill the mission of the Federal Air Marshal Service. Upon graduation from Phase II, newly appointed Federal Air Marshals are assigned to one of 21 field offices to begin flying missions.

Below is what a good well trained Air Marshall have done.....

According to the criminal complaint filed, the flight crew received a complaint that Sunday was intimidating passengers and making loud and rude comments on Northwest Airlines Flight 1057 from Pittsburgh to the Twin Cities. After Sunday was moved to a vacant seat in the rear of the aircraft she allegedly attempted to barricade herself in the area and would not allow other passengers in or out of the restroom. An air marshal on the flight attempted to calm-down Sunday and took a seat next to her. Sunday then allegedly became very belligerent, threatening to kill the air marshal.

She was arrested and handcuffed after she hit and attempted to choke the air marshal. Sunday also allegedly kicked the air marshal when he was attempting to check the handcuffs. When the flight arrived at the Minneapolis/St. Paul International Airport, Sunday allegedly remained combative and attempted to bite an airport police officer. At one point Sunday had to be tac