Truth About Separation of Church and State (Jesus Christ, ritual, morals)

[true blood]

The infamous statement, "Separation of Church and State" was taken out of context from a letter Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists, assuring them that the Constitution protected their religious freedoms and would not allow any one Christian denomination to be established as the "Government Church". The statement was never part of any early historical American document. Thomas Jefferson would be furiously opposed to the way his words have been taken out of context and misused to brainwash future generations of Americans.

If Thomas Jefferson truly believed that the 1st Amendment was intended to “separate church and state” by removing all religious influences from education, why would he initiate a school program that featured the Bible and Isaac Watts Hymnal (full of Christian songs) as the two primary textbooks? This was done over a decade after the 1st Amendment was written.

It was Thomas Jefferson who primarily wrote the Declaration of Independence (a government document) in which were included such words as “God”, “Creator”, “Supreme Judge of the world”, and “Divine Providence".

When a national seal was suggested for the United States, Jefferson proposed “The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night”. This was to be the official government seal for our nation. Where was ‘separation of church and state’ in that proposal? In 1798, he wrote (concerning the Kentucky Resolution): “No power over the freedom of religion is delegated to the United States by the Constitution."

Finally, Thomas Jefferson wrote his own epitaph, which is inscribed on his tombstone: Here lies buried Thomas Jefferson author of the Declaration of Independence author of the Statutes for Religious Freedom in Virginia and
father of the University of Virginia. Interesting that he did not choose to be remembered as “President of the United States”, but rather as the “author of the Statutes for Religious Freedom.

This great founding father, Thomas Jefferson, wanted to be remembered as the author of the Declaration of Independence and a protector of religious freedom! He proclaimed that no person should ever be prohibited from expressing his or her religious opinions! He placed the Bible in public schools as a primary textbook. On March 4, 1805 in an official government act, as President of the United States, he offered A National Prayer for Peace, ending with the words, “all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen”. Thomas Jefferson would be furious at the way his statement “separation of church and state” has been twisted and distorted to say exactly the opposite of what he intended. The “wall of separation between church and state” that Jefferson described was a wall to separate the government from ever interfering with our religious freedoms, not a wall to separate religious expression from our schools, courthouses, and other public places.

Early U.S. courts clearly understood Jefferson’s intent when he wrote about ‘a wall of separation between church and state’. In fact, unlike recent court cases, they quoted his letter in its entirety, including the full context. Today, only 8 words are quoted from his letter. In 1878 there was a case called ‘Reynolds vs. United States’. In this case, in which polygamy was condemned by the courts, the argument was that government was interfering with religious expression. In other words, the U.S. government had no right to prohibit polygamy, since it was a form of religious expression by a certain group.

The court did not agree, and referred to Thomas Jefferson’s letter as proof that the 1st Amendment did allow the government to interfere when religious expression violated social order and subverted moral behavior. Here they quoted President Jefferson’s letter in its entirety and concluded:

“Coming as this does from an acknowledged leader of the advocates of the measure, it (Thomas Jefferson’s letter) may be accepted almost as an authoritative declaration of the scope and effect of the Amendment thus secured. Congress was deprived of all legislative power over mere (religious)
opinion, but was left free to reach actions which were in violation of social duties or subversive of good order"

The court then proceeded to summarize Jefferson’s intent on ‘separation of church and state’ by saying: “The rightful purposes of civil government are for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against
peace and good order. In this is found the true distinction between what properly belongs to the church and what to the State.” It was understood that the government could only interfere when overt acts against peace and good order were occurring. In other words, such things as human sacrifice and polygamy could not “hide” under the pretense of religious freedom.

Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, William Rehnquist said:

“There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build a wall of separation”

He also said: “ the greatest injury of the “wall” notion is its mischievous
diversion of judges from the actual intentions of the drafters of the Bill of Rights The “wall of separation between church and State” is a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging. It should be frankly and explicitly abandoned.”

In his farewell speech to his troops, in his inaugural addresses to the nation, in proclaiming official days of prayer and fasting, and in his farewell speech to America, George Washington expressed his dependence and gratitude to God. He certainly was never aware of “separation of church and state”.

On numerous occasions, after the 1st Amendment had been signed into law by his own hand, George Washington demonstrated his belief that religious expression, especially Christianity, should be exercised freely in public, as well as private life.

One of the most powerful proofs that our founding fathers never intended for religion to be separate from education can be found in The Northwest Ordinance. This was a document that laid out the requirements for a territory to become accepted as a state. This document was signed into law by George Washington at the same convention that gave us the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the 1st Amendment. Section 13 of the Northwest Ordinance states: “And, for extending the fundamental principles of civil and religious liberty, which form the basis whereon these republics,
their laws and constitutions are erected: to fix and establish those principles as the basis of all laws, constitutions and governments, which forever hereafter shall be formed in the said territory.” Section 14, Article III reads:
“Religion, morality, and knowledge being necessary to good government and the happiness of mankind, schools and the means of education shall forever be encouraged.” This Northwest Ordinance, was signed into law by George Washington on August 4, 1789, during the same time that the 1st Amendment was being formulated.

Doesn’t it seem nuts for the same group of men to write an amendment stating that they believe that there should be a total separation between church and state, meaning that religion should be a completely private matter, removed from political and educational settings, and then turn right around and put into law a requirement that religion and morality, being necessary to good government should forever be encouraged through schools and means of education? However, they did not mention the words “separation of church and state” anytime during the 4 months in which the Constitution and 1st Amendment were being discussed. In fact, they would be outraged at the perverted definition that has emerged in today’s courts.

George Washington’s prophetic words in his farewell speech to America: “And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality
can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

Fisher Ames, the man who actually gave us the words of the 1st Amendment! Eleven years after writing the accepted words for the 1st Amendment he wrote the following article which was published in Palladium magazine: “Should not the Bible regain the place it once held as a school
book? Its morals are pure, its examples, captivating and noble. In no book is there so good English, so pure and so elegant; and by teaching all the same book, they will speak alike, and the Bible will justly remain the standard of language as well as of faith.” Someone forgot to tell Fisher Ames, the man who wrote the 1st Amendment, that there should be a separation between church and state. Evidently Fisher Ames was not taught the interpretation of courts today that faith and the Bible do not belong in the classroom. Practically every signer of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution believed that Bibles should be in our schools, that prayer should be permitted in political and educational gatherings, and that the freedom of religious expression should never be forbidden.

[painted wolf]

Thomas Jefferson enacted laws in Virginia to promote the seperation of church and state.
He made shure that referances to Jesus Christ were removed from the state constitution.

"(When) the (Virginia) bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason & right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that it's protections of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantel of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohametan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."--Thomas Jefferson, from his autobiography, 1821, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition _, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1:67

so to say he wanted church and state to mix is grossly out of line with the truth.

wa:do

[painted wolf]

ps... arn't we already talking about this elcewhere on this fourm?
why do we need so many variations on the same post?

wa:do

[linwood]

Originally Posted by true blood

why would he initiate a school program that featured the Bible and Isaac Watts Hymnal (full of Christian songs) as the two primary textbooks? This was done over a decade after the 1st Amendment was written.


When a national seal was suggested for the United States, Jefferson proposed “The children of Israel in the wilderness, led by a cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night”.

He placed the Bible in public schools as a primary textbook. On March 4, 1805 in an official government act, as President of the United States, he offered A National Prayer for Peace, ending with the words, “all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen”.

Please provide some reference for these claims as I`ve never heard of them.

[Rex]

Jefferson was a diest, wasn't he?

[linwood]

Yes Rex he was a deist who inconsistently frequented the Unitarian church.

There`s another thread on this here...

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...ed=1#post25312

The one at the link has gone a bit more in depth so maybe we should just stick to that one.

I don`t think we need two threads for the same topic.

[true blood]

Thomas Jefferson and John Adams are usually considered the leading American deists. There is no doubt that they subscribed to the deist credo that all religious claims were to be subjected to the scrutiny of reason. "Call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion," Jefferson advised. Other founders of the American republic, including George Washington, are frequently identified as deists, although the evidence supporting such judgments is often thin. Thomas Jefferson however believed in God and Jesus Christ. It's evident in the numberous national prayers he conducted as official acts of congress. Jefferson didn't believe in a "denomination" or a "religion". He believed there was only one true religion and that was based on the teachings of Jesus Christ and the belief that he was a man. Jefferson and Washington kept many journals which will prove they believed and acted on the faith of Christianity.

On March 4, 1805 President Jefferson prayed a National Prayer for Peace:

"Almighty God, Who has given us this good land for our heritage; We humbly beseech Thee that we may always prove ourselves a people mindful of Thy favor and glad to do Thy will. Bless our land with honorable ministry, sound learning, and pure manners."

"Save us from violence, discord, and confusion, from pride and arrogance, and from every evil way. Defend our liberties, and fashion into one united people the multitude brought hither out of many kindreds and tongues."

"Endow with Thy spirit of wisdom those whome in Thy Name we entrust the authority of government, that there may be justice and peace at home, and that through obedience to Thy law, we may show forth Thy praise among the nations of earth."

"In time of prosperity fill our hearts with thankfulness, and in the day of trouble, suffer not our trust in Thee to fail; all of which we ask through Jesus Christ our Lord, Amen."

On April 21, 1803 Jefferson wrote to Dr. Benjamin Rush:

"My views- - - are the result of a lifetime of inquiry and reflection, and very different from the anti-Christian imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am, indeed, opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines in preference of all others—"

While he was still President, Thomas Jefferson was also the chairman of the school board for the District of Columbia. He initiated a plan of education that featured the Bible and Isaac Watts' Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs as the main books for teaching students reading skills.

Proposed Seal for the United States
On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it. Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20. Although not accepted these drafts reveal the religious temper of the Revolutionary period. Franklin and Jefferson were among the most theologically liberal of the Founders, yet they used biblical imagery for this important task.

[true blood]

The words "seperation of church and state" is not in any of Jeffersons drafts. The words "respecting an establishment of religion" were. It forbade congress to make any law favorable to any single denomination.

[true blood]

Pah, You told me to start a new thread...so I did. And now you ridicule me?

[Runt]

Hun, Jefferson was a Unitarian. He rejected many traditional Christian beliefs, such as the concepts of Hell, miracles (including the Flood and the resurrection and any other miracle performed by Jesus), and divine revelation (leading to the writing of the Bible).



Some of his quotes: (from http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/museumevos.htm)

"The day will come when the account of the birth of Christ as accepted in the Trinitarian churches will be classed with the fable of Minerva springing from the brain of Jupiter." (letter to John Adams, 1823; all Thomas Jefferson quotations are from Foote 1947)

"Shake off all the fears and servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in the seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of God, because if there be one, he must approve of the homage of reason rather than that of blindfolded fear...Your own reason is the only oracle given you by heaven, and you are answerable not for the rightness, but the uprightness of the decision." (letter to Peter Carr)

So why would a man who rejects almost all mainstream Christian theology write about the Separation of Church and State while still wanting Christianity to influence education, government, and law?

Most likely, he wrote about the Seperation of Church and State with the intention that most people read into it: that the government be prevented from interfering with religion, and that religions be prevented from interfering with the government: a Wall Between Church And State.