U.S.A - A Nation Founded on Christian Faith (Jesus Christ, ritual)

[Scott1]

You certainly don't have to answer my question but a non-answer will, in the minds of other readers, diminish your position.

Just FYI: It has......

You'll find great arguement from many Christians.

He's one!

Nice debate pah........ remind me never to mess with ya!

Peace,
Scott

[true blood]

Look, I'm only 24 years old. I come here to have fun, debate, and listen to other's viewpoints. I'm not interested in anyone's respect. If you feel you "win" the debate...good for you, congrats. However the library of congress has plenty of data from the time of the nation's founding fathers, what they did and what they said. I'm not going to read some foreign king's book of doom and relate that to how my country was founded. Have a good day.

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

Originally Posted by true blood

...I'm not going to read some foreign king's book of doom and relate that to how my country was founded. Have a good day.

I don't see why not. The Book of Doom (circa 1000 CE) was the only thing that indicated common law was based on Christianity. It is as influencial as the Magna Carta signed 200 hundred years later (1215 CE) in establishing the laws and freedoms of our nation. Unfortunetly for your arguement, Christianity was removed from it.

So, in summary, the United States operated under English common law in the days of colonization and that continued in the framing of the Constitution. English common law, by then, had been divorced from Christianity for over 500 years and had built a judical system that looked within itself for authority, not to the authority of God. The common law of England was well known to the colonists and they kept it as the basis of Constitutional law.

It would be more correct to call our nation an English nation rather than a Christian nation becuase that was the overwhelming system of governance at the time (Plymouth, for a brief period of time, and Louisiana come to mind as exception to English common law).

The US was founded on Christianity - No it was founded under common law.
Common law was Christian - No, not at the time of our founding and for hundreds of years previously.
The Constitution is devoid of the Christion God - Yes

-pah-

[true blood]

Its obvious you think Christianty is about laws. It is not. Christianity is about living on the principles that Christ taught. It's about freedom, justice, love, peace, equality, etc... this country was founded on like principles.

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

Originally Posted by true blood

Its obvious you think Christianty is about laws.

There is "Christian law" as I've defined it previously. But I think there is more to Christianity than just that.

It is not. Christianity is about living on the principles that Christ taught. It's about freedom, justice, love, peace, equality, etc... this country was founded on like principles.

And I agree. So was modern day Japan but there is no Christianity in that founding either and very little of their spiritual heritage, if any, incorporated into the governemnet.

You have to understand the distinction bewtween governance and private conduct in a secular world. So many non-Christians throughout the world follow those self-same principles.

I have never denied that the US was not a nation of Christians and that politians bring their conscience to bear on their official duties. I have never denied that many of the founders and framers where not of Christian character. I have denied and proved that what those early Americans did, with their Christian conscience, was to erect a system of Godless government. That is the mark of our nation - not the Christianity. Too many other nations having a majority of Christians fail to reach the pinnacle of governance that we have acheived. If Christianity is the key, than the citizens of those other nations should be considered citizens of ours. God is not sovereign in the United States but only in the hearts and minds of some of it's citizens, not the country.The only authority that all citizens of the United States share is the Constitution.

-pah-

[clirus]

To pah

Blackstone's discussion of the law goes into great detail about how English Common Law came into existence, and there can be a lot of discussion of how law has changed from God's law of the Old Testament, to English Common law. However, I return to what Blackstone said.

"THIS law of nature, being co-eval with mankind and dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their force, and all their authority, mediately or immediately, from this original."

The key point here is that law was dictated by God himself, it is superior to all other law, and that no laws contrary to the laws dictated by God are valid.

There have been many sets of laws. God's law of the Old Testament was valid law, but the punishment was death in order to keep the purity of the society. Christ's law of the New Testament was intended to prevent the individual from ever getting to the point of violation of God's law by the Holy Spirit directing the individual. God's law and Christ's law are not different and may be considered as Christian law. For the Christian, the punishment of God's law is irrelevant, for the atheist, God's law and punishment is applicable.

Romans 8:2-6 says, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that is was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the thing of the Spirit. For the carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace".

Because men refuse the follow God, there is a definite attempt to discredit and eliminate Christian law from existence. That is why you see Blackstone showing the degeneration of the law, but reminding everyone that no laws contrary to the laws dictated by God are valid.

The attempt to eliminate Christian law is now at the stage where the American judicial system is legalizing pornography, abortion and homosexuality.

No Christian should vote for any democrat because of the democratic party support of abortion and homosexuality.

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

Originally Posted by clirus

To pah

Blackstone's discussion of the law goes into great detail about how English Common Law came into existence, and there can be a lot of discussion of how law has changed from God's law of the Old Testament, to English Common law. However, I return to what Blackstone said.

"THIS law of nature, being co-eval with mankind and dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their force, and all their authority, mediately or immediately, from this original."

The key point here is that law was dictated by God himself, it is superior to all other law, and that no laws contrary to the laws dictated by God are valid.

Austin's hangman argument seems to contradict Blackstone

“Now, to say that human laws which conflict with the Divine law are not binding, that is to say, are not laws, is to talk stark nonsense. The most pernicious laws, and therefore those which are most opposed to the will of God, have been and are continually enforced as laws by judicial tribunals. Suppose an act innocuous, or positively beneficial, be prohibited by the sovereign under the penalty of death; if I commit this act, I shall be tried and condemned, and if I object to the sentence, that it is contrary to the law of God, who has commanded that human lawgivers shall not prohibit acts which have no evil consequences, the Court of Justice will demonstrate the inconclusiveness of my reasoning by hanging me up, in pursuance of the law of which I have impugned the validity. An exception, demurrer, or plea, founded on the law of God was never heard in a Court of Justice, from the creation of the world down to the present moment.”

Since common law is the precedential accumulation of judicial decision, it would seem that a plea that is repugnant to the judicial system would not carry in defense of acts prohibited by the system. Law evolves with precedent and the system of current law reflects the origins. If the origins were God's law (or derived from God's law) such a plea would carry weight.

Perhaps you can tell us what Blackstone said about the eccelsiastical courts which housed God's laws and their relation to civil law.

There have been many sets of laws. God's law of the Old Testament was valid law, but the punishment was death in order to keep the purity of the society. Christ's law of the New Testament was intended to prevent the individual from ever getting to the point of violation of God's law by the Holy Spirit directing the individual. God's law and Christ's law are not different and may be considered as Christian law. For the Christian, the punishment of God's law is irrelevant, for the atheist, God's law and punishment is applicable

Romans 8:2-6 says, "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that is was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the thing of the Spirit. For the carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace".

It is obvious from what you wrote that "death" is not necessairly of the body for if it were there would be a corpse for every sin. The Old Testamnet administered corporal punishemnet only when the sin was "discovered" by the people. You lead one to believe that God, in his omniscience, would have known the sin and extracted the "fleshly"punishement from the sinner.

This may lead to the argument that the laws were not of God but of the people.

Because men refuse the follow God, there is a definite attempt to discredit and eliminate Christian law from existence. That is why you see Blackstone showing the degeneration of the law, but reminding everyone that no laws contrary to the laws dictated by God are valid.

Must I remind you that the framers of the Constitution and the ratifiers (the people) did not chose to be governed by God's law in any form of theocracy. God's law was certianly present in the homes of many Christians. It was when it escaped the homes that it made atrocities in social justice (I am thinking of the Salem Witch Trials and the banishment of citizens of Plymouth).

The attempt to eliminate Christian law is now at the stage where the American judicial system is legalizing pornography, abortion and homosexuality.

Christian law was eliminated from our national society when the Constitution and admendments were ratified. There has been no "recent start". Free speech has always been recognized as free speech. Individual rights have always been recognized as individual rights. What has started has been an effort to Christianize what always has been secular.

No Christian should vote for any democrat because of the democratic party support of abortion and homosexuality

.

I should remind you that the conservative justices appointed by Republican administrations
have affirmed Roe v Wade despite having an excellant opportunity to overthrow it. I should remind you also that this same conservative court overthrew a decision by a much more liberal court. (Bowers v Hardwick, 1986)

-pah-

[clirus]

To pah

pah quote
Christian law was eliminated from our national society when the Constitution and admendments were ratified.

Reply
The discussions presented in this topic, where many of those who were involved with the Constitution presented both Religious and non Religions statements is going to make it hard to disprove your statement, however I do not agree with that statement and will look for evidence to support that the Constitution was a continuation of and endorsement of Christian Law.

There was certainly a concern when the Constitution was written that there should not be a government religion, because many of those who came to America were fleeing the Church of England and other European churches that were basically government churches.

I believe the reason for the concept of separation of church and state was to ensure the government did not infringe on the Christian religion and other religions. You can infringe by 1) establishing a government religion, or 2) by passing congressional legislation, or 3) by the judicial system legalizing immorality that is contrary to religion.

The Constitution address the first two of these infringements. The Constitution does not address the third. It is interesting to note that the judicial system was a do nothing group until two events occurred.

1) The senate started being elected instead of being appointed.

2) Franklin D. Roosevelt and other democrats thought they could do an end run around congress by legalizing socialism through the judicial system.

Democrats were quick to realize that they could bring things into existence through the judicial system that would never pass through congress. Since the senate appoints the federal judges, the control of the senate meant control of the judicial system, and thus control of America. I think this was a plan that was carefully crafted in Boston, New York City and the North Eastern States.

The attempt to eliminate Christian law is now at the stage where the American judicial system is legalizing pornography, abortion and homosexuality.

No Christian should vote for any democrat because of the democratic party support of abortion and homosexuality.

pah quote
It is obvious from what you wrote that "death" is not necessairly of the body for if it were there would be a corpse for every sin.

Reply
Romans 6:23, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our lord."

Some Christians say the death that is being described as wages is the separation from God for eternity (hell). However, I believe the wages of sin is physical death. When you look around, you see the wages of homosexuality is AIDs, the wages of sexual immorality is abortion and venereal disease, the wages of an alcoholic is a diseased liver, the wages of excessive eating is obesity, the wages of smoking is lung cancer, etc.

God does not want people to live in misery nor to die. He provides the BIBLE as a Basic Instruction Book for Living Everyday. God does not force anyone to read or use the Bible, but why choose death over life.

John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

[Rex]

I think the question of this thread should be remade into either:

USA- its founder's believed in Christianity?

or

USA- where did our laws come from?

[Bright-ness' Shadow]

Originally Posted by clirus

To pah

pah quote
Christian law was eliminated from our national society when the Constitution and admendments were ratified.

Reply
The discussions presented in this topic, where many of those who were involved with the Constitution presented both Religious and non Religions statements is going to make it hard to disprove your statement, however I do not agree with that statement and will look for evidence to support that the Constitution was a continuation of and endorsement of Christian Law.

You would do well to go to post #10 in this thread where sites are given that discredits the notion of Christian Law - which comes from scripture) being the foundation of our country in favor of common law

There was certainly a concern when the Constitution was written that there should not be a government religion, because many of those who came to America were fleeing the Church of England and other European churches that were basically government churches.

I believe you will find that it was Plymouth Colony that wrote law reflecting God's law and that was changed when Plymouth Colony became the Bay Colony.