Religious Education Forum  

Welcome to Religious Forums
Welcome Guest to ReligiousForums.com . You are currently not registered. When you become registered you will be able to interact with our large base of already registered users discussing topics. Some annoying Ads will also disappear when you register. Registering doesn't cost a thing and only takes a few seconds. We provide areas to chat and debate all World Religions. Please go to our register page!

Home Who's Online Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   Religious Education Forum / Everything But the Kitchen Sink / Political Debates
Sitemap Popular RF Forums REGISTER Search Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-10-2005, 06:41 AM
Jayhawker Soule's Avatar
Jayhawker Soule Offline
Religion: naturalism
Title:Supporter
Prolific Poster Award:  - Issue reason: You have acheived over 10,000 posts here at RF. Congrats! Scholarship Award:  - Issue reason:  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Frubals: 2960464
Jayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal Whore
Jayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal Whore
Jayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal Whore
Default Whose Jerusalem?

From The Middle East Quarterly

The Muslim Claim to Jerusalem

Conclusion

Politics, not religious sensibility, has fueled the Muslim attachment to Jerusalem for nearly fourteen centuries; what the historian Bernard Wasserstein has written about the growth of Muslim feeling in the course of the Countercrusade applies through the centuries: "often in the history of Jerusalem, heightened religious fervour may be explained in large part by political necessity." This pattern has three main implications. First, Jerusalem will never be more than a secondary city for Muslims; "belief in the sanctity of Jerusalem," Sivan rightly concludes, "cannot be said to have been widely diffused nor deeply rooted in Islam." Second, the Muslim interest lies not so much in controlling Jerusalem as it does in denying control over the city to anyone else. Third, the Islamic connection to the city is weaker than the Jewish one because it arises as much from transitory and mundane considerations as from the immutable claims of faith.

Mecca, by contrast, is the eternal city of Islam, the place from which non-Muslims are strictly forbidden. Very roughly speaking, what Jerusalem is to Jews, Mecca is to Muslims – a point made in the Qur'an itself (2:145) in recognizing that Muslims have one qibla and "the people of the Book" another one. The parallel was noted by medieval Muslims; the geographer Yaqut (1179-1229) wrote, for example, that "Mecca is holy to Muslims and Jerusalem to the Jews." In modern times, some scholars have come to the same conclusion: "Jerusalem plays for the Jewish people the same role that Mecca has for Muslims," writes Abdul Hadi Palazzi, director of the Cultural Institute of the Italian Islamic Community.

The similarities are striking. Jews pray thrice to Jerusalem, Muslims five times daily to Mecca. Muslims see Mecca as the navel of the world, just as Jews see Jerusalem. Whereas Jews believe Abraham nearly sacrificed Ishmael's brother Isaac in Jerusalem, Muslims believe this episode took place in Mecca. The Ka‘ba in Mecca has similar functions for Muslims as the Temple in Jerusalem for Jews (such as serving as a destination for pilgrimage). The Temple and Ka‘ba are both said to be inimitable structures. The supplicant takes off his shoes and goes barefoot in both their precincts. Solomon's Temple was inaugurated on Yom Kippur, the tenth day of the year, and the Ka‘ba receives its new cover also on the tenth day of each year. If Jerusalem is for Jews a place so holy that not just its soil but even its air is deemed sacred, Mecca is the place whose "very mention reverberates awe in Muslims' hearts," according to Abad Ahmad of the Islamic Society of Central Jersey.

This parallelism of Mecca and Jerusalem offers the basis of a solution, as Sheikh Palazzi wisely writes:
separation in directions of prayer is a mean to decrease possible rivalries in management of Holy Places. For those who receive from Allah the gift of equilibrium and the attitude to reconciliation, it should not be difficult to conclude that, as no one is willing to deny Muslims a complete sovereignty over Mecca, from an Islamic point of view -notwithstanding opposite, groundless propagandistic claims - there is not any sound theological reason to deny an equal right of Jews over Jerusalem.
To back up this view, Palazzi notes several striking and oft-neglected passages in the Qur'an. One of them (5:22-23) quotes Moses instructing the Jews to "enter the Holy Land (al-ard al-muqaddisa) which God has assigned unto you." Another verse (17:104) has God Himself making the same point: "We said to the Children of Israel: ‘Dwell securely in the Land.'" Qur'an 2:145 states that the Jews "would not follow your qibla; nor are you going to follow their qibla," indicating a recognition of the Temple Mount as the Jews' direction of prayer. "God himself is saying that Jerusalem is as important to Jews as Mecca is to Moslems," Palazzi concludes.

His analysis has a clear and sensible implication: just as Muslims rule an undivided Mecca, Jews should rule an undivided Jerusalem.
It is a long article but well worth reading.
__________________
if G-d ( G-d is not 'X' for all 'X' )
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-10-2005, 07:00 AM
michel's Avatar
michel Offline
Religion: Christian Gnostic
Title:Administrator Emeritus
Above and Beyond Award:  - Issue reason: This award has been given to you by your peers for your work on the newsletter and is well deserved. Creative Thread Award:  - Issue reason:  Research Award:  - Issue reason:  Article Award:  - Issue reason:  Prolific Poster Award:  - Issue reason:  
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: U.K
Gender: Male
Posts: 28,121
Frubals: 1263009
michel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whore
michel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whore
michel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whoremichel is a Frubal Whore
Default

I am sorry to hear about this controversy; for me, Jerusalem belongs to the Jews - no argument. I realize part of that is an emotional response, but only part......
__________________
My life is an open book; if you don't like the read, put me back on the shelf ....................
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-10-2005, 07:37 AM
jewscout's Avatar
jewscout Offline
Religion: Judaism
Title:Religious Zionist
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Israel
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,316
Frubals: 198696
jewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond repute
jewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond repute
Default

You must spread more karma around before giving more to Deut 32.8...

yet another excellent article thanks Deut!
__________________
good night, sleep tight, and don't let the bedbugs put their foot in your....
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-11-2005, 05:35 PM
Faminedynasty Offline
Title:Sophmore Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Sactown
Gender: Undisclosed
Posts: 349
Frubals: 28741
Faminedynasty has much to be proud of
Faminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud ofFaminedynasty has much to be proud of
Default

Ah, so Jeruselem belongs to the Jews, and the muslims have no claim, eh? Well I'm glad we finally got this settled. Now all of those Muslims can abandon their mistaken beliefs and bow to the true religious beliefs of the Jews and accept that what they thought was holy to them actually was not, and we can all be friends, seperate but equal.
It is also noteable that God is on the side of the Jews in this whole dispute. And I hate to go against God, I really do, it makes me nervous. But if you ask me, if people have decided that a city is holy to them, whether it is for religious, political, or practical reasons (and honestly, don't these all overlap?) it will be holy to them, regardless of what God, or biased articles say. If you ask me, Muslim, Christian and Jew all have legitamate claim, and things are not going to get any better until all of these can accept the other as their brothers under God.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-12-2005, 07:19 AM
jewscout's Avatar
jewscout Offline
Religion: Judaism
Title:Religious Zionist
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Israel
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,316
Frubals: 198696
jewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond repute
jewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond reputejewscout has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Faminedynasty, i think you're missing the point of the article. it is stating the importance of Jerusalem to the Jewish faith as the single most holiest site on the planet, and that, for the Muslims, it is not the #1 holiest site, that is Mecca. It is not saying the Jewish faith is any better than any other faith or that everyone should become a jew. It's showing the importance of Jerusalem in Judaism and even points to Islamic text to show that both faiths were supposed to have holy places independent of one another (at least that's what i got out of it)
__________________
good night, sleep tight, and don't let the bedbugs put their foot in your....
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-12-2005, 07:28 AM
Melody's Avatar
Melody Offline
Religion: Believer
Title:Uber Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Michigan
Gender: Female
Posts: 3,251
Frubals: 39450
Melody has much to be proud of
Melody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud ofMelody has much to be proud of
Default

Deut,

Thanks for the article. It was an interesting read. I've often been puzzled over the Muslim's attachment to Jerusalem since Mecca is their holy city.
__________________
Your word is a lamp to my feet And a light to my path.
Psa 119:105
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-12-2005, 07:41 AM
DreamQuickBook's Avatar
DreamQuickBook Offline
Title:Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Gender: Undisclosed
Posts: 583
Frubals: 2113
DreamQuickBook has a spectacular aura aboutDreamQuickBook has a spectacular aura aboutDreamQuickBook has a spectacular aura aboutDreamQuickBook has a spectacular aura aboutDreamQuickBook has a spectacular aura aboutDreamQuickBook has a spectacular aura aboutDreamQuickBook has a spectacular aura aboutDreamQuickBook has a spectacular aura about
Default

Well, we (the US and the British) gave Jerusalem to the Jews with the United Nations' permission. Of course, it isn't theirs by right. But, now that they have it, I say, if they can defend it, it's theirs.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-12-2005, 12:50 PM
Feathers in Hair's Avatar
Feathers in Hair Offline
Religion: Pagan Rabble Rousing
Title:World's Tallest Hobbit
Prolific Poster Award:  - Issue reason: 10,000 posts Above and Beyond Award:  - Issue reason:  Member of the Month Award:  - Issue reason:  Humor Award:  - Issue reason:  Kindness Award:  - Issue reason:  Journal Award:  - Issue reason:  Article Award:  - Issue reason:  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: CR, IA
Gender: Female
Posts: 14,627
Frubals: 573212
Feathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on trees
Feathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on trees
Feathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on treesFeathers in Hair thinks frubals grow on trees
Default

That booming sound is the sound of my head exploding.
__________________
...Mad Brain Surgeon!...

A Guide for Our Newer Members


Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-12-2005, 01:38 PM
Jayhawker Soule's Avatar
Jayhawker Soule Offline
Religion: naturalism
Title:Supporter
Prolific Poster Award:  - Issue reason: You have acheived over 10,000 posts here at RF. Congrats! Scholarship Award:  - Issue reason:  
 
Join Date: May 2004
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Frubals: 2960464
Jayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal Whore
Jayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal Whore
Jayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal WhoreJayhawker Soule is a Frubal Whore
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faminedynasty
Ah, so Jeruselem belongs to the Jews, and the muslims have no claim, eh? ... But if you ask me, ...
Which, of course, I didn't. But, if I did, I would ask you to consider arguing against the article rather than your strawman caricature. The point is not that God is on the side of the Jews. The point is that the religious centrality of Jerusalem to Islam is recent and self-serving revisionist history. You have every right to disagree with that position. You have no right to distort it.
__________________
if G-d ( G-d is not 'X' for all 'X' )
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-12-2005, 01:58 PM
anders Offline
Title:Senior Member
Scholarship Award:  - Issue reason:  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,725
Frubals: 45304