The greatest country in the world

[Caladan]

Originally Posted by Skwim

Rather silly, and way over the top. His response to why the USA is not the greatest country in the world is essentially a list of eight items---plus a questionable three--- in which the USA is not on top or is a ways down the list, as if these were thee only criteria by which one should judge a country. So while it sounds good, it's a rather cockeyed selective-issues only argument.

I'm not saying the USA is the greatest nation in the world (of course it isn't the best in everything), but if one is going to start judging such things the criteria can't be cherry-picked so as to give only one side of the story.

LOL and 'Diversity and opportunity' or 'freedom and freedom' are in anyway informative answers? many countries have freedom, and many countries offer diversity and opportunity. At least a point has been made here, even if it's being made on a television drama.

[methylatedghosts]

Originally Posted by Skwim

I'm not saying the USA is the greatest nation in the world (of course it isn't the best in everything), but if one is going to start judging such things the criteria can't be cherry-picked so as to give only one side of the story.

I will hopefully track down an article I saw either in New Scientist or on the interwebs somewhere, that I believe shows a more accurate representation of the "greatness of countries".

All I can really recall, is that it involved a fair bit of research, involving average personal incomes, relative happiness, quality of life, politics, civil rights and freedoms (perhaps more), and combined those factors into a grading system to find the "best place to live".

Or something...

At any rate, it was definitely more accurate than what was said in this video.

However, I do feel that the guy is onto something. Rose-tinted memory glasses aside (which we all have, btw), I think what he does, is challenge the traditionally accepted stance. One that is obvious in the question asked. The question itself assumes that America IS the greatest country - and that is what I think should be taken from this video. That is the lesson here. Never mind the rest of it, whether or not he's right, but take the challenge.. ask instead "Is America the greatest nation, and why?", rather than "What makes America the greatest nation?".

Just an aside: I'm not picking on the U.S. (although you do make very fine, and very large targets :P), it's just that this video was a good platform to begin from. Assumptions like this are built into the questions we ask about who we are, where we are, what we believe... what we stand for.

[Skwim]

Originally Posted by Caladan

LOL and 'Diversity and opportunity' or 'freedom and freedom' are in anyway informative answers?

No less or more than the other answers.

many countries have freedom, and many countries offer diversity and opportunity. At least a point has been made here, even if it's being made on a television drama.

And the point is: Ain't cherry pickin' fun

Originally Posted by methylatedghosts

However, I do feel that the guy is onto something. Rose-tinted memory glasses aside (which we all have, btw), I think what he does, is challenge the traditionally accepted stance. One that is obvious in the question asked. The question itself assumes that America IS the greatest country - and that is what I think should be taken from this video. .

If his issues weren't so selectively skewed his answer would have merit, but they were, so they don't. In essense he's saying the USA isn't the greatest country because of X, Y, and Z, but X, Y, and Z are cherry-picked issues so his point fails.

That is the lesson here. Never mind the rest of it, whether or not he's right, but take the challenge.. ask instead "Is America the greatest nation, and why?", rather than "What makes America the greatest nation?"

Different question for a different show.

[methylatedghosts]

Originally Posted by Skwim

If his issues weren't so selectively skewed his answer would have merit, but they were, so they don't. In essense he's saying the USA isn't the greatest country because of X, Y, and Z, but X, Y, and Z are cherry-picked issues so his point fails.

Aye but what I mean is, at the very least, he challenged this question's assumption, which I haven't seen much of. And that's where I feel the message is, rather than whether or not he's right.

[BBTimeless]

Originally Posted by methylatedghosts

Aye but what I mean is, at the very least, he challenged this question's assumption, which I haven't seen much of. And that's where I feel the message is, rather than whether or not he's right.

I agree, I believe he was trying to put the question in perspective. When someone asks a question like that they are looking for a certain answer without any form of a challenge. Basically, to make their subject (The USA, in this case) look good in a greater forum, which was the purpose of the question I suppose. Will McAvoy (Jeff Daniels) challenges this paradigm by attempting to put the question in perspective using attributes and facts that will stand against the assumed claim.

Cherry picking for sure, but isn't the question itself also cherry picking? Personally, I hate those kind of baited questions to begin with.

[Father Heathen]

Originally Posted by Skwim

Rather silly, and way over the top. His response to why the USA is not the greatest country in the world is essentially a list of eight items---plus a questionable three--- in which the USA is not on top or is a ways down the list, as if these were thee only criteria by which one should judge a country. So while it sounds good, it's a rather cockeyed selective-issues only argument.

I'm not saying the USA is the greatest nation in the world (of course it isn't the best in everything), but if one is going to start judging such things the criteria can't be cherry-picked so as to give only one side of the story.

[Father Heathen]

Just some rankings to place things into perspective:

List of freedom indices - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Education Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quality-of-life Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
State of World Liberty Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by income equality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[BBTimeless]

Originally Posted by Father Heathen

Just some rankings to place things into perspective:

List of freedom indices - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Education Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Quality-of-life Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
State of World Liberty Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
List of countries by income equality - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is also a good resource:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...orld-factbook/

[Skwim]

Originally Posted by BBTimeless

I agree, I believe he was trying to put the question in perspective.

A skewed perspective to be sure. To put something in correct perspective one can't choose only those issues that favor one side or the other.

When someone asks a question like that they are looking for a certain answer without any form of a challenge.

Correct; however, his challenge wasn't an honest one.

Basically, to make their subject (The USA, in this case) look good in a greater forum, which was the purpose of the question I suppose. Will McAvoy (Jeff Daniels) challenges this paradigm by attempting to put the question in perspective using attributes and facts that will stand against the assumed claim.

And I would assume that no one, the questioner included, thinks the USA is without fault.

Cherry picking for sure, but isn't the question itself also cherry picking? Personally, I hate those kind of baited questions to begin with.

No, because the USA may well be the "greatest nation in the world" despite all its shortcomings. Assuming everything he said is true---which I have no reason to doubt---plus a whole lot of other negative stuff, fairly considered by whatever reasonable standards one chooses to measure "Country Greatness," the USA may still come out on top, . . . .or perhaps not. To simply point out its failure to land on top in certain regards says nothing about it's actual character. What if these 8 to 11 negative points were the only things wrong with the USA (of course we know they're not) and there were 231 other points, just as important, that favored the USA, what would be a fair evaluation of the nation then?

Originally Posted by Father Heathen

At least it's an honest appeal to emotion, blatant as it may be.

[BBTimeless]

Originally Posted by Skwim

A skewed perspective to be sure. To put something in correct perspective one can't choose only those issues that favor one side or the other.

A skewed perspective for a skewed question.

Originally Posted by Skwim

And I would assume that no one, the questioner included, thinks the USA is without fault.

Granted.

Originally Posted by Skwim

No, because the USA may well be the "greatest nation in the world" despite all its shortcomings. Assuming everything he said is true---which I have no reason to doubt---plus a whole lot of other negative stuff, fairly considered by whatever reasonable standards one chooses to measure "Country Greatness," the USA may still come out on top, . . . .or perhaps not. To simply point out its failure to land on top in certain regards says nothing about it's actual character. What if these 8 to 11 negative points were the only things wrong with the USA (of course we know they're not) and there were 231 other points, just as important, that favored the USA, what would be a fair evaluation of the nation then?

Two things, I think we have reached the conclusion that objectively saying any country is "greatest nation in the world" would be very difficult. Personal bias and nationalism would come into play. However, I think he illustrates a very important concept. Blind nationalism can breed ignorance of bad topics that are largely forgotten and arrogance in light of the good things the US has. I don't think his statement is meant to be the end-all be-all of arguments on the topic, however, it is a reminder that there are things to be done. To simply sit back and pat our pride while sipping our Mai Tais is a dangerous thing to do.