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  #71  
Old 04-12-2012, 05:22 AM
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Someone should ask Obama what is going on. We just sent a second aircraft carrier into the region. This is not a normal situation by a long shot, it looks akin to a cocked gun to me.
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  #72  
Old 04-12-2012, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Reverend Rick View Post
Someone should ask Obama what is going on. We just sent a second aircraft carrier into the region. This is not a normal situation by a long shot, it looks akin to a cocked gun to me.

Its a cocked gun alright, Iran has threatened to cut of the Gulf's strategic oil routes in retaliation for economic sanctions. In reality that scenario is more likely to produce military action than anything else.

i believe the US has had two aircraft carriers in the gulf on four occasions over the past decade.


U.S Navy deploys 2nd aircraft to Gulf amid rising tensions with Iran | Mail Online


Iran official: Only faint chance of war breaking in the Middle East - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
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  #73  
Old 04-12-2012, 07:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyler Durne View Post
negotiate peaceful relationship? isn't 60 years not enough?
There is no time limit on seeking peace, since conflicts continually arise.
I expect it to be an ongoing process until we replace ourselves with peacebots.

Quote:
how can you negotiate with people who's hate comes from a believe system?
Beliefs systems are flexible, & change with culture. Continually attack & threaten a people, & the culture will hate.
Recognize this cycle, & seek opportunity for change. To be resigned to intransigence of one's enemies leaves you 2 choices:
1) Destroy them all.
2) Continual war.
#1 is impossible, so if attempted then it leads to #2.

Quote:
a perfect example is Gaza but yet rockets are still flying, so how much longer can I tell my kids who go to sleep and wake up with a siren of an incoming rocket to live with it until the other side might sometime in the future decide to make peace? what if they don't?
Ask them to become the peacemakers, if the current leaders are unable.

Quote:
Iran does not need to suffer for action of nazis but what is it Irans business with what is happening between Israel and arabs who call them self's Palestinians? Persians do not border with Israel, they are neither Jews nor Arabs so what give them the right to threaten Jews?
Israel, US, Iraq & Saudi Arabia all either threaten &/or attack Iran. That Jews & Xians of western powers together frame these
conflicts in a religious context would explain why Iran would also focus upon religious groups. Muslims have clearly been treated
by western powers as a mere dirty inconvenience over the last century. To see this from Iran's perspective would be illuminating.

Quote:
I am sick and tired to constantly keep hearing for the last 30 years of my life that someone somewhere wants to kill me because I was born a Jew, I want to live a normal and a peaceful life, to have kids and grand kids but yet someone believes I don't have the right to live and I should listen to you about being peaceful about it? am I any worse then you that you have the right to have a peaceful life and I don't?
Your concerns are real & difficult, so I don't dismiss them. But neither do I dismiss the rights to peace
of your foes. We each have the opportunity to let our humanity triumph over anger & revenge.

Quote:
You threaten me, I will beet you down until you stop threatening me and I will guarantee safety and freedom for my kids and grand kids.
Would you grant that right to destroy those who threaten you to the Palestinians or Iranians? America has
already directly attacked Iran by coup & by proxy (Iran). We now threaten them directly & by proxy (Israel).

Quote:
Some fool takes the world stage and declares to a world that Jews are satans and have no right to live and rather then following common sense and shutting him up the world asks us to be peaceful or worst case calls us nazis?
It would be a mistake to think that one's foe is a fool. If anything, I find Iran's conduct of late to be smarter than Israel's,
but neither should be underestimated. As for those who call each other such vile names, I cannot speak for them.

Quote:
who do you all think you are?
Again, I cannot speak for others, but I am a taxpayer in a country which spends money & life to wage continual & fruitless
war on the other side of the world. I'm tired of paying to fuel war with goals of political & religious hegemony. It ain't right.
So as a minor player in this travesty, I have a right, nay the obligation to comment & try to effect change.
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Last edited by Revoltingest; 04-12-2012 at 07:37 AM..
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  #74  
Old 04-12-2012, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyler Durne View Post
Buddy, I got news for you, WWIII is already here and not because you did something wrong to the other part of the world but because certain people in the Muslim world want it.
This is a rather dysfunctional perspective.
1) War could easily escalate to something far far larger than what we now see. To say that we're already there, would suggest
to many that it couldn't get much worse. That would blind them to possible terrible consequences of decisions today.
2) To demonize the enemy by saying they want WW3, fuels the hysteria & clamoring for war, increasing its likelihood.

Quote:
Lat's be honest about it....
Always.

Quote:
....there are people in power in the Muslim world who want the entire world to embrace Islam and there is nothing you can do to make them change their mind.
There are always people out there who embrace dangerous beliefs. This is not limited to Islam, so it isn't an argument
to war with an entire religion. Besides, they have about a billion followers too many to make that strategy effective.
To find a way to see them as friends has much greater potential for success.
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Last edited by Revoltingest; 04-12-2012 at 07:27 AM..
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  #75  
Old 04-12-2012, 07:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Sunstone View Post
It wasn't wrong to invade Iraq? Let alone Afghanistan?

Names?

Good. You start!

If so, is the best way to deal with these people to bomb and/or invade Iran? Why or why not?
It is not the best way and I would suggest any other method that would be effective. In the case of these particular middle eastern countries who are completely committed to a policy of religous compulsion, reckless malice, self destructive hate, lying, and fighting by cowardly proxy methods I am afraid it is the only way. No-one wants to reason with cancer or allow cancer time to develope new capabilities and this mindset will have to be employed or we might as well give up and live under sharia law (or oppression and injustice masqurading as law) because they are more committed to error than we seem to be rightousness.

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  #76  
Old 04-12-2012, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Revoltingest View Post
You say that as though it's certain.
I judge it as most unlikely....unless Israel strikes first.
In that case Iran would fully justified in defending itself by counterattacking Israel.

You may argue that they shouldn't care about American, Iranian & other lives.
I get an impression that many believe there are 2 kinds of people in the world:
1) Israelies
2) People who are disposable.
I disagree. They all matter, & a solution should be peaceful & predicated on that.
Are you suggesting that Israel should let them build a few bombs and drop them, loosing a quarter million people then reply evaporating a few million Iranians very possibly triggering an armaggedon, rather than hit their reactors now killing a few thousand and whatever they would loose as Iran stepped up their ineffective proxy wars.

I believe that in that area of the world that Israel is by far the most honorable, U.S. freindly, democratic, and benevolent nation by far. Thats means in a conflict which wouldn't even exist except for the agression of their neiboors I favor whatever results in their best interest. It is Iran and it's idealogic commitments that has put Israel in this position not the other way around.


WHO IS IT THAT OPPOSES THIS TINY INDUSTRIOUS NATION, ISRAEL

  • Morocco, Mauritania, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, Sudan, Djibouti, Somalia, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Yemen. These are just the ones that are overtly hostile to Israel and in close proximity.
  • They control 13.5 million square km to Israel’s 20 thousand Km.
  • They have 292 million people to Israel’s 5 million.
  • Groups of these countries have started a total of 4 major wars and countless violent actions. To which they lost 100%. After each war Israel returned the vast majority of any land they had conquered. This is unparalleled in history except for the U.S.
  • A famous Arab is quoted as saying “If the Moslems laid down there arms today there would be peace tomorrow”. “If the Israelis laid down their weapons today there would be no Israel tomorrow”
  • Jews have inhabited Israel continuously for 3,000 plus years. They are the only nation on earth that still speaks the same language, occupies the same land, and worships the same God that it did 3000 years ago.
  • There has never been a Palestinian nation, a distinct Palestinian language or culture.
  • The Jews have welcomed and incorporated Arabian refugees, but the Jewish refugees in Arabian countries are the only group of refugees in history that have not been accepted in countries which they exist even after three generations.
  • Under Jordanian rule Jewish holy sites were systematically destroyed and they were denied access. Under Jewish control all Jewish, Christian, and Muslim sites are preserved and open to anyone to visit.
On a graph plotting Jewish concessions vs. Arabic violence. After every instance of Israel giving land or concessions there is a spike of Arabic violence. Now the world is telling them to give more of the 1/6 of 1% only to get attacked for the effort.
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  #77  
Old 04-12-2012, 11:12 PM
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If you see an argument about international affairs, where one side is 100% right, and the other side is 100% wrong, the argument is ********! Especially so when it consists of fabricated, unsourced material. Real life is much more complicated than simple-minded propaganda.
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  #78  
Old 04-12-2012, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Reverend Rick View Post
Someone should ask Obama what is going on. We just sent a second aircraft carrier into the region. This is not a normal situation by a long shot, it looks akin to a cocked gun to me.
I am continually surprised that Republicans don't just cut the pageantry and waste of money, and concede the Presidential Election, by giving Obama an affirmation at some sort of bipartisan convention. Seriously! Looking on from the outside, there is not a lot of daylight between the two parties on real important issues dealing from economics to civil rights and freedoms to foreign policy!

On this particular issue -- if we step into the Way Back Machine to almost two years ago, we can recall how the still relatively new Obama Administration blew up any chance of considering a deal based on the negotiations that Brazil and Turkey had been working on with Iran. From a recent post on this discarded opportunity to avoid a Persian Gulf War: How Neocons Sank Iran Nuke Deal
In recent comments, key Iranians have signaled flexibility along the lines of the earlier swap arrangement, but the reason why such a deal might leave Tehran “in a stronger position” than in 2009-2010 is that then the Post’s editors, along with other neocon pundits and allies inside the Obama administration, sank the earlier plan for Iran to surrender much of its low-enriched uranium for isotopes needed by an Iranian medical research reactor.


Iran had yet to overcome the technical obstacles to refine uranium to the 20 percent level to produce those isotopes. Now, Iran’s 20 percent level is only a few steps short of bringing uranium to the 90 percent refinement for a nuclear bomb. So, the earlier deal would have left Iran much further from the threshold of a nuclear-bomb capability.


However, in 2009 – and again in 2010 – Washington’s neocon voices ridiculed the proposed uranium swap on the grounds that Iran would have kept enough low-enriched uranium (at the much lower 3.5 percent level) that it could theoretically, sometime in the future, be able to refine it and build one nuclear bomb.
Today, Iran has much more enriched uranium at a much higher level, enough for at least several theoretical nuclear bombs (though Iran says it doesn’t want any).
So, one could agree with the Post’s assessment that Iran’s nuclear position today is stronger than it was in 2009 and 2010. But whose fault was that? It would seem to rest more with the Post editorialists and other neocons who demanded the heightened confrontation with Iran in place of the uranium swap.


For instance, even before the revived swap deal was unveiled on May 17, 2010, the Washington Post’s editors were mocking the leaders of Brazil and Turkey who had spearheaded the initiative. The Post called the plan “yet another effort to ‘engage’ the extremist clique of Ayatollah Ali Khamenei and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.”
After the Iran-Brazil-Turkey deal was announced in Tehran, the rhetorical abuse escalated with Washington pundits and administration hardliners, like Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, treating the leaders of Brazil and Turkey as unwelcome interlopers who were intruding on America’s diplomatic turf in an effort to grandstand.


How Neocons Sank Iran Nuke Deal | Consortiumnews

Let's just say that if the world price for crude oil shoots up to 300 or $400 per barrel because of a Gulf War, it won't be because an unnecessary war could not have been avoided!
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  #79  
Old 04-13-2012, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Tyler Durne View Post
I fully agree with the first part of your post, if people have the right to choose either side let them do so but they should be honest about it and not call the opposite side nazis and just be honest about it. negotiate peaceful relationship? isn't 60 years not enough? how can you negotiate with people who's hate comes from a believe system? a perfect example is Gaza but yet rockets are still flying, so how much longer can I tell my kids who go to sleep and wake up with a siren of an incoming rocket to live with it until the other side might sometime in the future decide to make peace? what if they don't?

Iran does not need to suffer for action of nazis but what is it Irans business with what is happening between Israel and arabs who call them self's Palestinians? Persians do not border with Israel, they are neither Jews nor Arabs so what give them the right to threaten Jews? I am sick and tired to constantly keep hearing for the last 30 years of my life that someone somewhere wants to kill me because I was born a Jew, I want to live a normal and a peaceful life, to have kids and grand kids but yet someone believes I don't have the right to live and I should listen to you about being peaceful about it? am I any worse then you that you have the right to have a peaceful life and I don't?

You threaten me, I will beet you down until you stop threatening me and I will guarantee safety and freedom for my kids and grand kids. Some fool takes the world stage and declares to a world that Jews are satans and have no right to live and rather then following common sense and shutting him up the world asks us to be peaceful or worst case calls us nazis? who do you all think you are?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyler Durne View Post
Buddy, I got news for you, WWIII is already here and not because you did something wrong to the other part of the world but because certain people in the Muslim world want it. Lat's be honest about it, there are people in power in the Muslim world who want the entire world to embrace Islam and there is nothing you can do to make them change their mind.
Your posts don't seem much different than those you are criticizing.
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  #80  
Old 04-13-2012, 04:33 AM
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  • Quote:
    A famous Arab is quoted as saying “If the Moslems laid down there arms today there would be peace tomorrow”. “If the Israelis laid down their weapons today there would be no Israel tomorrow”
i ignore it ,
good claim from that arabic .

any way from my opinion , the peace will come when Israel realise that it's around by nuclear weapon countries , until now it's seem that it's not happening .

and for my opinion the peace with israelis , is gain, not deserve .

for exemple we the Algerians get the independant from the France because we gain it , not deserve it in the view of the French people .

anyway my ancle was hight level in Algerian Army , we discuss this issue , he told me that Iran may have the neclear weapon , and syria , Hizballah too .

and he told me too that Algeria ,Egypt and Turky could have it too .
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