Do we NEED guns? (evolution, America, pagan, Zen)

[No*s]

I voted yes. I don't trust the government, and the arming of citizens can help protect liberty.

I feel this way even though I'd sooner get shot than shoot someone .

[robtex]

Originally Posted by Dr. Nosophoros

I know you were talking top A.A. Robtex, but I defended myself with a shot gun in Oklahoma once while camping with OOO buck shell inserted. After I got out of the military, I travelled quite a bit on my motorcycle. A cutoff Savage-Stevens single shot shotgun broke down quite nicely into three pieces and stored well wrapped in a oiled towell and bunjee corded between the exahust pipes underneath my bike (only place cops didn't look!) I placed my site well away from others but eventually others camped. I had no problem until I heard an RV that was pulled up next to my camp, it was late-I heard them wrestling (I think they were drunk) and cursing each other inside the RV, there was a female and male voice which pleaded with him to not go out "there" I knew I was in trouble at that point. I grabbed my blanket and shrouded myself in it with the assembled shotgun, loaded and cocked and sat before my small campfire and waited, before long a male came out of the RV (with pistol in hand) it seemed to be a .357 mag SW due to the full moon. He camer closer slowly, in my mind I envisioned a "space" or circle of which if he entered he would die, he did not breach that circle. I slowly moved the barrel of the shotgun through the blanket and had the trigger about half pulled, when that barrel came through I have never seen someones eyes get as big as that and with gun limply at his side back peddled. He went back to the RV, and I heard nothing else but silence, I packed my gear (though it was night) and found another place to camp. Was I afraid? Hell yes! but its what you do with fear is what counts, let it parylize you or spur you on.

'

DR N. real quick it is AE not AA. About your camping trip was the drunk looking for you or those he was interacting with? I get the idea he never knew you were there. Why did you wait. Should you have not just left much earlier? When they were first yelling? Maybe do the 911 thing if you found a payphone? A bunch of losers getting drunk and playing with guns presents a stronger arugement against gun owernership than for it. If I was where you were I think leaving would have been a much better option early on. You precieved the danger long before the idiot came out with the gun......I would have to ask why you waited to leave and what is up with the road warrior (mel gibson movie) image you got going there?

[robtex]

Originally Posted by linwood

I dunno Rob.

I don`t own a gun but my house was broken into in the middle of the night 2 years ago.
I managed to subdue the guy physically but if he had had a gun I would either be dead or at the least seriously injured.
I`ve also been pepper sprayed on one occassion and it didn`t subdue me.
It only really ****** me off.

But yet you didn't buy a gun why? P spray may have ****** you off but if they had fist cuffed with you immediatly afterwards I am confident that unless their fist cuffing skills were non existant it would have been a one way beating.

[robtex]

Originally Posted by No*s

I voted yes. I don't trust the government, and the arming of citizens can help protect liberty.
I feel this way even though I'd sooner get shot than shoot someone .

two quick notes

1) armed revolution in the US inititiated by the goverment during your lifetime....not gonna happen. Besides you already defected from the republic of texas traitor (kididng). Voting in a republic and being politically astute protects liberty. Armed revolution isn't justified here and now.

2) I don't believe you when you say you would rather be shot than shot someone else because you vote suggests otherwise. Saying that I bet if we put down our macho gun madnesss mentality for a few months we can all soon be enlightened to the reality there is no reason for going to war with our goverment.

[linwood]

But yet you didn't buy a gun why?

I`ve got three kids and an anger problem.

I shouldn`t own a gun.

P spray may have ****** you off but if they had fist cuffed with you immediatly afterwards I am confident that unless their fist cuffing skills were non existant it would have been a one way beating.

Granted I lost that altercation due to the blindness but I still managed to inflict quite a bit of damage before he realised I wasn`t just going to curl up in a fetal position.

I`m torn on this one Rob.
A gun is not "my thing" personally as truthfully I`ve never been in a situation my wits or fists couldn`t get me out of one way or another, barring those choices the fetal position isn`t all that bad when necessary.

However you must admit there have been times in history when great tragedies could have or were averted because one responsible person had a gun and knew how to use it.

I remeber Lubys cafeteria in Texas.
My first thought was Jesus this is Texas!
I can`t believe no one had a firearm!

I later read a story about a woman whose parents died in there while she was getting something out of her truck, when she heard the gunfire she immediately reached into her glovebox only to realise her husband had taken the pistol out a week before due to some new law or the fact that they lost their carry pemit (Can`t really remember).
If she had had that gun it wouldn`t have been nearly as horrible as it turned out.

Pros and cons.
The hard part as it always is is to determine whether the pros outweigh the cons.
I haven`t been able to make that determination as of yet.

[No*s]

Originally Posted by robtex

two quick notes

1) armed revolution in the US inititiated by the goverment during your lifetime....not gonna happen. Besides you already defected from the republic of texas traitor (kididng). Voting in a republic and being politically astute protects liberty. Armed revolution isn't justified here and now.

On this I wholly agree with you. The necessity of an armed revolution is a long ways away (a looooong ways), and voting is a check. If the situation were to arise it is also the failure of the people who let it happen.

Originally Posted by Robtex

2) I don't believe you when you say you would rather be shot than shot someone else because you vote suggests otherwise. Saying that I bet if we put down our macho gun madnesss mentality for a few months we can all soon be enlightened to the reality there is no reason for going to war with our goverment.

I don't see a need to rise up at the government and will speak against it. Our situation is nowhere near anything that could justify that. Guns aren't something I need to stop the government right now. They're another one of the checks and balances in our system, and I hope and doubt I will have to see them played out any time soon.

On the guns vote being at odds with my personal choice, well, I do that in a lot of areas. I vote that it is absolutely necessary to protect free speech, even if I would have to side with the likes of Penthouse's publisher. I, thus, have supported the freedom of speech of pornography, but I find it repulsive. I oppose war, but I realize the necessity of a standing army. By supporting that, I support another liberty and choice, but it, like porn, is one that I will not take. Heck, the only weapons I own are a shortsword, a Bowie knife, a small knife, and a cheap display katana . I don't have, nor am I getting at the moment, a gun.

[robtex]

Linwood is it a game of numbers. For those who don't know about a decade ago a shooter walked into a Luby's in Texas in Killeen and killed 24 people. The number of idiots who will kill one another over relationships which football team is the best in the country, religious and racial differneces this year will be in the 1000's.

Here is a great resource on that.

http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/factsheets

Two things when considering these stats and rampages:

1) The guy with the gun is an arguement for gun control
2) for every minnosota school shooting or killeen rampage 1000's more will be killed annually by friends and aquitances because of current gun avaliablty.

Let me put it to you another way. Say you work in an office with 500 people...a really big company. Lets face it there is no way you can know about everybody there....any day one of those guys can just lose it and come in firing....by your line of thought...maybe its a good idea for all the employees to pack iron just in case one of them flips out..(oh yeah and if they are going to do that get rid of the offices coffee pots...i would be really tempted to shoot some jerkoff from accounting who took the last cup and didn't restart the machine).

[robtex]

Originally Posted by No*s

I don't see a need to rise up at the government and will speak against it. Our situation is nowhere near anything that could justify that. Guns aren't something I need to stop the government right now. They're another one of the checks and balances in our system, and I hope and doubt I will have to see them played out any time soon.

lol checks and balances..here lets add a reality check to that.....bunch of average citizens with guns versus the US army.....hmmmmm...

Citizen gun ownership is not a check and balance.....If there was another civil war of the people versus the armed services I contend it would be a one way beating......

Having said that we have one of the most open govenements in the world......we are so far from needed an armed revolution it ain't even funny. We do need less apathy in the voting community that would be helpfull.......why so many more republicians than non-republicians think voting is important is beyond me......