Gun Control (Earth, virgin, creation, atheist, God)

[Fat Old Sun]

Why do I always find a good post when I have to go to work?
I'll be back later tonight to give this the attention it deserves.

A quick rebuttal to the camo issue: If you can get within 50 yards of a wild turkey that doesn't have a hen, without wearing camo, I'll give you $100. He will easily spot you at 100 yards.

[Seyorni]

The American founding fathers were greatly concerned with government usurpation of individual rights and liberty. They feared the natural tendency of government to grow and arrogate power. Gun ownership by individual citizens was seen as a vital check on this. The government needs to fear an armed rebellion should it overstep its purpose. The means of public insurrection must be maintained.

Public disarmament is a step toward tyranny.

[Engyo]

For whatever it's worth, I just read a statistic that a child in America is 100 times more likely to die in a swimming pool than to be killed by a gun. Make of that what you will........

[Fluffy]

I am in 2 minds over guns for the following reasons.

Pro-gun arguements - I dislike the idea of being under the control of an increasingly powerful state government which has the control of a vast array of weaponry when the general populace has no way of countering any effective dictatorship that the government might want to put into place. Perhaps such an idea is far-fetched in England (at least in these times) but that does not mean that situation might not arise in the future or for other countries.

Whenever I face a moral problem, I generally like to take the approach which gives people the more choice. For example, I think it is better for someone to decide that they don't wish to murder rather than them wanting to but not because they will get put into jail. The same goes with guns, I would much rather see no legislation on gun ownership and people decide not to use them on their own.

Anti-gun arguements - The only purpose a gun has is to cause harm to another. Defending oneself is still causing harm to another person, IMHO. I have to say that I cannot understand why somebody would want to collect guns, but I can accept that as long as they do not wish to use these guns then they should be allowed to. Perhaps banning the production of ammo for the guns or making the guns unfireable by altering their mechanism would do the trick and still let collectors collect them.

The idea of having a gun in order to protect oneself does not hold up to scrutiny. A gun is an offensive weapon meaning that if both the aggressor and victim have equal access to them then it will leave the aggressor at an advantage, especially because an aggressor is far more likely to be able to use the gun properly whereas their victim, assuming the first shot misses them and they do not get hit in the time it takes them to take their own gun out and fire, is not.

[Crystallas]

I vote for less criminals(to bad this wasnt an option.) Seems as though you cant teach a kid about guns w/o bias. Imagine if you did teach kids what the purpose of guns were, and let them decide for themselves. Do you immediately jump to conclusions and believe that those kids will grow up to be killers?

Camo and hunting... I have to also disagree with the whole colorblindness would make an animal immediatly to stupid to still not see someone sniping them out. Also its a law in most states to use the bright orange as an indicator to other hunters durring hunting seasons.

Also most anti-gun arguments that I hear all ignore lifestyles other than the modern lifestyle. Its not my choice or anyone elses to force people with any traditions(not killing eachother) to become obsolete and untolerated. Yeah, give them bows and arrows... thats smart, talk about something that is much simpler for a kid to figgure out and mess up. Id love to see a kid with an arrow through his head and then they can tell everyone "Nope, its not a novelty hat."

We definately need to work on tracking down illegal gun sales and removing them off the streets. But how would we do that better than we do it now without losing focus on many of the other law-breakers that policing has to work on. You basically end up making a loop of crime, when you change the ballance from one area to another, then people that commit other crimes fall through the cracks. Not even about to mention all of the other problems with our courts, jails, and undertrained law enforcement to handle every possible action. So you have to still be able to defend yourself and your family until the generational change occurs to a certain favor to where focus can eliminate other problems to make life safer for us.

People have their free will, and people will allways challenge things when its taken away from them. Its part of life, and you cant go around making laws that treat each person as a potential loony.
The laws are good, its the eductaion that is bad. You cant fix this problem w/o creating 2 problems for its place. Time has proven this. If anything we all should be ready and welcoming of a large disaster to open up a lot of peoples minds on their options, sadly this seems to work for a short while.

[Seyorni]

Originally Posted by Fluffy

The idea of having a gun in order to protect oneself does not hold up to scrutiny. A gun is an offensive weapon meaning that if both the aggressor and victim have equal access to them then it will leave the aggressor at an advantage, especially because an aggressor is far more likely to be able to use the gun properly whereas their victim, assuming the first shot misses them and they do not get hit in the time it takes them to take their own gun out and fire, is not.

Allow me to respectfully disagree, Fluffy. I believe the knowledge that a homeowner might own a gun tends to diminish burglaries and home invasions, and I understand that in areas where concealed-carry laws are instituted muggings and armed robberies plummet.

A personal observation: Many years ago I was set upon by a group of neighborhood chavs as I pulled up in front of my house. Things were looking bad till I remembered there was a toy gun in the car. I exited the car, held the pistol above my head, and my assailants fled like singed cats. I was never bothered again.

The purpose of guns is to make criminals fear you.

[Fluffy]

Allow me to respectfully disagree, Fluffy. I believe the knowledge that a homeowner might own a gun tends to diminish burglaries and home invasions, and I understand that in areas where concealed-carry laws are instituted muggings and armed robberies plummet.

Yup I can agree with that one BUT this doesn't explain why crime rates in England are lower than America when we do not have an abundance of guns. Indeed we only recently (20 years now) armed our police officers.

Also I would argue that selling something whose purpose is to make people fear you yet also allows the people you want to be afraid of you to be able to kill you is not an effective marketing strategy. Additionally, this sets up an unfair enviroment for those unable to afford a gun since you are marketing a device which, even if it does give an edge to the victim over the criminal, is not available to the poor and so infact increases the amount of non-money related gun crime since criminals will find them easier targets than if they did not have a gun.

Also most anti-gun arguments that I hear all ignore lifestyles other than the modern lifestyle. Its not my choice or anyone elses to force people with any traditions(not killing eachother) to become obsolete and untolerated. Yeah, give them bows and arrows... thats smart, talk about something that is much simpler for a kid to figgure out and mess up. Id love to see a kid with an arrow through his head and then they can tell everyone "Nope, its not a novelty hat."

As far as I am aware, most moralistic arguements do that. Where is the line that you have which seperates this issue from that of killing one another? What other areas does it extend to? Theft? Rape?

[Seyorni]

I think the disparity in gun crime between the US and UK is more cultural than gun-ownership related, Fluffy. For example, Canada, as I understand it, has similar gun ownership numbers to the US but a much lower rate of gun crime.

As far as disparate access to guns between the rich and poor, I suspect you'd find more guns amongst the American working classes than the rich -- they're not all that expensive. In any case, it's not the possession of a gun that dissuades criminals, but the possibility that an intended victim might have one.

I read an interesting article in the Guardian (London) a few months back about burglary in the UK.

In the US a burglar knowingly entering an occupied dwelling is almost unknown, and should an intruder hear a suspicious noise whilst in a house he'll flee in a panic.

Apparently in the UK, where it's assumed a homeowner is unarmed, most burglaries occur in occupied dwellings! Is this gun-related or do British neds just have bigger brass ones?

[Saw11_2000]

I don't think we should outlaw them, but I don't think it should be as easy as it is now. Way more background checks, I know it's an invasion of privacy, but nowadays, we need to be sure.

[Fat Old Sun]

There are three reasons to own guns: Collecting, Hunting, Protection.

Collectors are often also hunters. As different types of hunting require different guns, the hunter is soon on his way to a collection of firearms. I have no problem with regulation of the storage and display of firearms to an extent. They should be kept locked up and unloaded. To require them to be disabled is a bit much. You can imagine what would happen to the value of a collectable car that does not run anymore, or an instrument that cannot be played anymore. You do have to be licensed to collect automatic weapons. It is not an easy license to get, but it is very easy to lose. A collector in posession of a full auto permit follows the law to the very last letter to make sure he keeps his permit.

Hunters and semi-auto weapons - Oddly enough, an SKS sporter does make a good deer rifle. Different game requires different guns. You usually won't use the same shotgun for turkey that you would use for ducks. I use a Mini-14 for deer, but for elk, not only is it stupid, it's very irresponsible. For bear or moose, it's damn near suicidal. So, hunters often have several guns. This can be a big problem when people want to limit the number of guns a person can own.

Hunters and beer - STUPID!!! I like to hunt. I like to drink. I never drink before or while I'm hunting. This has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever seen a person do, and yes I've seen too many people do it. To not have all of your senses in tune not only dulls the experience, it reduces your chance of a successful hunt, and increases your chance of injuring or killing yourself or someone else. I will never defend this.

I do not hunt because I get a thrill from killing. There is a bit of a rush that comes from the culmination of a successful hunt. I guess you would have to experience it to understand. For me, it is not about taking a life. I only hunt when I know I will put the animal to use. I eat what I take, and I use the hides. It is far healthier than the crap they sell at the grocery store.

Protection - This is why I have guns. One of my earliest childhood memories is waking up in the middle of the night seeing my father beating someone nearly to death in my bedroom. Someone had broken into our house and was in my bedroom. Fortunately, my father can handle himself. I was taken out of the room before the lights were turned on, but I saw my father when he walked into the hallway after the police got there. He was covered in blood up to his elbows. The guy who broke into our house had so much PCP in his system, that by the time he stopped resisting he had lost an eye, almost all of his teeth, and his nose was completely shattered. The next day, my father bought a gun.

There are those in this world that have no conscience. There are those that would kill you for $5.00 and not lose a minutes sleep over it. The police cannot protect you. You can protect yourself. I have shot someone. It is not a pleasant experience. I shot him with a beanbag round, and it still was very disturbing feeling. If he had moved even an inch, the next round would have gone right through his head. I would not have liked it, but would have done it. The guy that I shot was a career criminal with over 20 arrests. He was also a sex offender. My girlfriend, her 6 year old daughter, and one of her daughter's friends were over that night. Better him than me, and damn sure better him than any of them.

... to be continued (gotta work)