Some notes on Paul and homosexuality. (moral, Earth, Kingdom, soul)

[angellous_evangellous]

Plutarch has a long essay on love (eros) that corresponds to Paul’s discussion on homosexuality in Romans one, using the same terms to describe it.

The translation is available online at http://oll.libertyfund.org/ToC/0062.php volume 4, essay on love... (about page 250-350) but I will be quoting from a more recent translation that is unavailable online.

Here are some relevant notes:

Moralia 750d “In a normal (h9 fusij // e foosees) state one’s desires for bread and meat is moderate, yet sufficient; but abnormal indulgence of this desire creates the vicious habit called gluttony and gormandizing. In just the same way there normally (th=? fu/sei // tea foosi) exists in men and women a need for pleasure derived from eachother; but when the impulse that drives us to this goal is so vigorous and powerful that it becomes torrential and almost out of control, it is a mistake to give the name of Love (e1rwta = eros) to it.”

Moralia 751c “But to consort with males (whether without consent, in which case it involves violence and bridgandage; or if with consent, there is still weakness (malaki/a // malakia - see 1 Cor 6.9 below) and effeminacy (qhlu/thti // theluteti) on the part of those who contrary to nature (para\ fu/sin // para fooseen) allow themselves in Plato’s words ‘to be covered and mounted like cattle’ (the whole phrase is “no/mw? tetra/podoj kai\ paidospoei=sqai”) - this is completely ill-favored favor (= a1xarij xa/rij = ungraced grace - the same word for grace in the NT).”

Compare to Romans 1:

Romans 1:26-32 26 Dia. tou/to pare,dwken auvtou.j o` qeo.j eivj pa,qh avtimi,aj( ai[ te ga.r qh,leiai auvtw/n meth,llaxan th.n fusikh.n crh/sin eivj th.n para. fu,sin( 27 o`moi,wj te kai. oi` a;rsenej avfe,ntej th.n fusikh.n crh/sin th/j qhlei,aj evxekau,qhsan evn th/| ovre,xei auvtw/n eivj avllh,louj( a;rsenej evn a;rsesin th.n avschmosu,nhn katergazo,menoi kai. th.n avntimisqi,an h]n e;dei th/j pla,nhj auvtw/n evn e`autoi/j avpolamba,nontejÅ

Romans 1:26-27 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And 1 Corinthians 6.9

BNT 1 Corinthians 6:9 "H ouvk oi;date o[ti a;dikoi qeou/ basilei,an ouv klhronomh,sousinÈ mh. plana/sqe\ ou;te po,rnoi ou;te eivdwlola,trai ou;te moicoi. ou;te malakoi. ou;te avrsenokoi/tai

ESV 1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality (literally either being on the giving or receiving end).

Some people think that translating malakoi. as “male homosexual” is incorrect, but Plutarch is explicit in how the word is to be defined. I do not intend whatsoever to imply that this is how we should treat homosexuals today, but any argument based on Scripture cannot argue that there is a translation error in modern Bibles regarding this issue in either Romans 1 or 1 Corinthians.

Interestingly, malakoi. appears in Matthew:

BNT Matthew 11:8 avlla. ti, evxh,lqate ivdei/nÈ a;nqrwpon evn malakoi/j hvmfiesme,nonÈ ivdou. oi` ta. malaka. forou/ntej evn toi/j oi;koij tw/n basile,wn eivsi,nÅ

ESV Matthew 11:8 What then did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Behold, those who wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.

[angellous_evangellous]

Gosh I hope that's readable, LOL! I'll be glad to unpack this if needed, and I will post the Plato quotes asap.

[angellous_evangellous]

I'd appreciate it if a MOD would move this thread to the philosophy sub-forum.

Gracias

[angellous_evangellous]

Plutarch is summarizing Plato, Phaedrus 250d and following, some of which I will post here:

Plato:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin//ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0174&layout=&lo c=Phaedrus+250d

But beauty, [250d] as I said before, shone in brilliance among those visions; and since we came to earth we have found it shining most clearly through the clearest of our senses; for sight is the sharpest of the physical senses, though wisdom is not seen by it, for wisdom would arouse terrible love, if such a clear image of it were granted as would come through sight, and the same is true of the other lovely realities; but beauty alone has this privilege, and therefore it is most clearly seen [250e] and loveliest. Now he who is not newly initiated, or has been corrupted, does not quickly rise from this world to that other world and to absolute beauty when he sees its namesake here, and so he does not revere it when he looks upon it, but gives himself up to pleasure and like a beast proceeds to lust and begetting [251a] he makes licence his companion and is not afraid or ashamed to pursue pleasure in violation of nature.

But he who is newly initiated, who beheld many of those realities, when he sees a godlike face or form which is a good image of beauty, shudders at first, and something of the old awe comes over him, then, as he gazes, he reveres the beautiful one as a god, and if he did not fear to be thought stark mad, he would offer sacrifice to his beloved as to an idol or a god.

And as he looks upon him, a reaction from his shuddering comes over him, with sweat and unwonted heat; 251b] for as the effluence of beauty enters him through the eyes, he is warmed; the effluence moistens the germ of the feathers, and as he grows warm, the parts from which the feathers grow, which were before hard and choked, and prevented the feathers from sprouting, become soft, and as the nourishment streams upon him, the quills of the feathers swell and begin to grow from the roots over all the form of the soul; for it was once all feathered.

But beauty, [250d] as I said before, shone in brilliance among those visions; and since we came to earth we have found it shining most clearly through the clearest of our senses; for sight is the sharpest of the physical senses, though wisdom is not seen by it, for wisdom would arouse terrible love, if such a clear image of it were granted as would come through sight, and the same is true of the other lovely realities; but beauty alone has this privilege, and therefore it is most clearly seen [250e] and loveliest.

Now he who is not newly initiated, or has been corrupted, does not quickly rise from this world to that other world and to absolute beauty when he sees its namesake here, and so he does not revere it when he looks upon it, but gives himself up to pleasure and like a beast proceeds to lust and begetting [251a] he makes licence his companion and is not afraid or ashamed to pursue pleasure in violation of nature.

But he who is newly initiated, who beheld many of those realities, when he sees a godlike face or form which is a good image of beauty, shudders at first, and something of the old awe comes over him, then, as he gazes, he reveres the beautiful one as a god, and if he did not fear to be thought stark mad, he would offer sacrifice to his beloved as to an idol or a god.

And as he looks upon him, a reaction from his shuddering comes over him, with sweat and unwonted heat; 251b] for as the effluence of beauty enters him through the eyes, he is warmed; the effluence moistens the germ of the feathers, and as he grows warm, the parts from which the feathers grow, which were before hard and choked, and prevented the feathers from sprouting, become soft, and as the nourishment streams upon him, the quills of the feathers swell and begin to grow from the roots over all the form of the soul; for it was once all feathered.

[angellous_evangellous]

continued...

Now in this process the whole soul throbs and palpitates, and [251c] as in those who are cutting teeth there is an irritation and discomfort in the gums, when the teeth begin to grow, just so the soul suffers when the growth of the feathers begins; it is feverish and is uncomfortable and itches when they begin to grow.

Then when it gazes upon the beauty of the boy and receives the particles which flow thence to it (for which reason they are called yearning),1 it is moistened and warmed, [251d] ceases from its pain and is filled with joy; but when it is alone and grows dry, the mouths of the passages in which the feathers begin to grow become dry and close up, shutting in the sprouting feathers, and the sprouts within, shut in with the yearning, throb like pulsing arteries, and each sprout pricks the passage in which it is, so that the whole soul, stung in every part, rages with pain; and then again, remembering the beautiful one, it rejoices.

So, because of these two mingled sensations, [251e] it is greatly troubled by its strange condition; it is perplexed and maddened, and in its madness it cannot sleep at night or stay in any one place by day, but it is filled with longing and hastens wherever it hopes to see the beautiful one.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by Plato in post 4

but gives himself up to pleasure and like a beast proceeds to lust and begetting [251a] he makes licence his companion and is not afraid or ashamed to pursue pleasure in violation of nature (para\ fu/sin // para fooseen).

The "in violation of nature" is the same Greek term as Plutarch's Moralia in post #1 and in Romans.

Moralia 751c “But to consort with males (whether without consent, in which case it involves violence and bridgandage; or if with consent, there is still weakness (malaki/a // malakia - see 1 Cor 6.9 below) and effeminacy (qhlu/thti // theluteti) on the part of those who contrary to nature (para\ fu/sin // para fooseen) allow themselves in Plato’s words ‘to be covered and mounted like cattle’ (the whole phrase is “no/mw? tetra/podoj kai\ paidospoei=sqai”) - this is completely ill-favored favor (= a1xarij xa/rij = ungraced grace - the same word for grace in the NT).”

and in Romans 1 (note the giving up is like what Plato says above:

Romans 1:26-32 26 Dia. tou/to pare,dwken auvtou.j o` qeo.j eivj pa,qh avtimi,aj( ai[ te ga.r qh,leiai auvtw/n meth,llaxan th.n fusikh.n crh/sin eivj th.n para. fu,sin( 27 o`moi,wj te kai. oi` a;rsenej avfe,ntej th.n fusikh.n crh/sin th/j qhlei,aj evxekau,qhsan evn th/| ovre,xei auvtw/n eivj avllh,louj( a;rsenej evn a;rsesin th.n avschmosu,nhn katergazo,menoi kai. th.n avntimisqi,an h]n e;dei th/j pla,nhj auvtw/n evn e`autoi/j avpolamba,nontejÅ

Romans 1:26-27 26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

[robtex]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

I'd appreciate it if a MOD would move this thread to the philosophy sub-forum.

Gracias

da nada.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by robtex

da nada.

The one post on this thead other than mine!

You tha man, rob!

[angellous_evangellous]

This is also a nice quote:

Plato, Laws 1.636c

And whether one makes the observation in earnest or in jest, one certainly should not fail to observe that when male unites with female for procreation the pleasure experienced is held to be due to nature, but contrary to nature when male mates with male or female with female, and that those first guilty of such enormities were impelled by their slavery to pleasure.