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View Poll Results: Do you want to live forever?
Yes, in all possibilities 1 12.50%
No, in all possibilities 0 0%
Yes, with some possibilities 5 62.50%
No, with some possibilities 2 25.00%
Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

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  #171  
Old 03-04-2013, 01:50 AM
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Originally Posted by muichimotsu View Post
I had a thread before elsewhere called "The Desirability of Immortality", though I think this Queen song works much better

The basic question is this: do you want to live forever and if so, why? Make an effort to defend the position of immortality as something we as humans desire and/or should desire. Ethics are of particular import here, not to mention aesthetics, metaphysics and epistemology to a certain extent.

I would argue that immortality is probably the worst curse one could wish on a person, since there is no real sense of progress, time, etc. I would sooner wish to be reborn/reincarnated, if there was no option for nonexistence, than to live forever, either as a disembodied spirit, or in some immortal body.

I'd say there are 5 variables that are important to the discussion, though there are likely more.

Material Vs. Immaterial-Whether the immortality is corporeal in nature or whether you have gone beyond the physical and have some sort of at least semi spiritual body.

Communal vs. Individual-Is the immortality a part of a large society or is it something an individual has, by one of many methods or traits associated with that state?

Innate vs. Innovation-Has the immortality always been a fact of life or has it come about by some outside source?

Permanent vs. Provisional-Can you never cease being immortal or is there a way to stop the state and render yourself dead?

Resistant vs. Nonresistant-This is probably one of the traits least thought about. Are you physically indestructible or even resistant to disease, or are you subject to all or most of the human weaknesses, but are simply unable to die naturally, such as the elves in Middle Earth?
If you mean the question in any way, the idea is that 'we are alive now.' We cannot believe, we will die. It appears, that if we can feel like this, are we basically feeling that life is not what it appears? We age from time to time, and we cannot see the difference, and we do die, and we don't know the exact time we die, or will die. We are telling ourselves, that if we are happy, now, we want this moment not to move. Hence, we interpret the idea of everlasting life, in the manner we do.
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  #172  
Old 03-04-2013, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by muichimotsu View Post
Immortality, like many things that seem very appealing, do tend to have a trade off. Omnipotence means you'd never be surprised, kind of like telepathy, heh.
There is no perfection without defect.
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  #173  
Old 03-04-2013, 03:06 PM
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Originally Posted by muichimotsu View Post
That doesn't sound like faith, it sounds like slavery of the mind. Any good faith, from what I understand as a religious studies major (which I imagine may not count for much to you) is also countered by a sense of doubt or concern or even reservation of some form

If eternity is based on God's will, but God would know everything, wouldn't God known whether or not immortality is good for everyone? Not to mention does this mean God consigns people to oblivion and nonexistence merely because they don't believe in it?
Yep, I think you got it partly right. How else can we have mortality except by God? No human who has that kind of power. We age and die, and there is no evidence to the contrary. So, discussing eternity without God is fantasy.

I believe it is all about believing and accept God without conditions or reservations. Actually, this is the main reason why there may be no salvation. Contrary to some Christian beliefs humans are not inclined to be obedient to God. They have independent wills (egos). I suspect in the presence of God most humans would expect some kind of deference or approval. Perhaps, they would try to tell God how to run things, or attempt to exercise their authority. So, not wanting to have another Satan in heaven, God shuts the gate.

I think there are several possibilities: ignoring God, rejecting of God, accepting God with conditions, total acceptance with no conditions or reservations (slavery).

Angels must be slaves.

It's a big dilemma, humans may want to be with God, but they also want their independence.

Last edited by Repox; 03-04-2013 at 03:09 PM..
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  #174  
Old 03-04-2013, 03:13 PM
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So many Christians argue that our immortality is in our nature, probably because we're created in god's image and such.

Why would I want to be with perfection when imperfect entities are so much more interesting?
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  #175  
Old 03-04-2013, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Straw Dog View Post
There is no perfection without defect.
Therefore perfection is illusory in nature and one can only be close to it, not completely so. This would apply to immortality as well, logically speaking, it seems.
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  #176  
Old 03-04-2013, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by muichimotsu View Post
So many Christians argue that our immortality is in our nature, probably because we're created in god's image and such.

Why would I want to be with perfection when imperfect entities are so much more interesting?
Choices have consequences. I find God's perfection more interesting than this world. I believe we're incapable of living in a perfect world (heaven). I've explored many of life's paths, and having found them wanting. I chose eternal life with God. It is not just a gamble, I really want to be with God in heaven. In the end, it's up to God, we have no means to make it happen.

There are only two possibilities: mortal existence or immortality with God.
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  #177  
Old 03-04-2013, 06:32 PM
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So you're purely doing this because of your desires instead of accepting the mystery, which in your worldview makes sense, that you may or may not be granted immortality? Qualify if you wish, but the base idea seems to be rooted in one's clinging to life.

What's uninteresting about this world? Wasn't Jesus a human just like us according to your beliefs?
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  #178  
Old 03-04-2013, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by muichimotsu View Post
So you're purely doing this because of your desires instead of accepting the mystery, which in your worldview makes sense, that you may or may not be granted immortality? Qualify if you wish, but the base idea seems to be rooted in one's clinging to life.

What's uninteresting about this world? Wasn't Jesus a human just like us according to your beliefs?
I believe Jesus was God and not his son, so my belief is different than most Christians. I don't believe Jesus extolled worldly virtues, it was about his kingdom. He was not just like us. Because he was different, he was murdered.

If you know something about God and heaven, you might not have an interest in this world. I've explored this world with a lifetime of experiences and some achievements, compared to God and heaven, it falls short.

Last edited by Repox; 03-04-2013 at 06:47 PM..
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  #179  
Old 03-04-2013, 07:11 PM
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Jesus being God and Jesus being God's son aren't necessarily contradictions in Christian theology, though I can understand your wanting to believe the former without the trappings of the latter

Worldly virtues can be construed a few ways, but I imagine you're meaning overly focused on this world, which isn't what I'm arguing for. This world is temporary in that it is always changing, not that it will be replaced by a heaven on earth or anything like that

You probably are specifically referring to spiritual knowledge, so any other knowledge I may have as a philosopher of religion may be useless or otherwise unhelpful here, correct?
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  #180  
Old 03-04-2013, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by muichimotsu View Post
Jesus being God and Jesus being God's son aren't necessarily contradictions in Christian theology, though I can understand your wanting to believe the former without the trappings of the latter

Worldly virtues can be construed a few ways, but I imagine you're meaning overly focused on this world, which isn't what I'm arguing for. This world is temporary in that it is always changing, not that it will be replaced by a heaven on earth or anything like that

You probably are specifically referring to spiritual knowledge, so any other knowledge I may have as a philosopher of religion may be useless or otherwise unhelpful here, correct?
On the surface there may not appear to be contradictions between Concepts of God and son of God. However, if you read Christian religious doctrines you'll not find a single statement that excludes the son of God as part of the trinity. Son of God appears to be extremely important to Christianity.

I don't mean to demean philosophy of religion. Because I have had experiences with God, angels, and heaven, I don't believe I can engage in a rational debate. My spiritual experiences put me into trouble waters, it can only lead to misunderstandings and disbelief. Rather than continuing the discussion, lets stop it here.

Thanks for the discussion.

Last edited by Repox; 03-04-2013 at 10:22 PM..
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