Summerland (ritual, Earth, incarnation, soul, evolution)

[Master Hoomer]

summerland is celtic...um sounds wrong...

Yes..the underworld is where things come from...the rots of the tree...but the end is the beginning and things return to where they came froom....the underwirld is the land of the dead...and so much more....

[Runt]

summerland is celtic...um sounds wrong...

Tir na nOg was mentioned, at the earliest, in the fourth century CE. WAAAY before Wicca was ever created as a religion.

There are Four Irish Cycles that tell the history of Ireland. They are the Mythological Cycle, the Ulster Cycle, the Fenian Cycle and the Historical Cycle. Tir na nOg is found in stories about the Tuatha De Danann (Irish gods/faeries) in the Mythological Cycle, the myths of which date back to before 1000 BCE. Tir na nOg continues to be mentioned in mythology all the way up to the Fenian Cycle, in which the story “Oisin and Tir na nOg” was written for the first time around the year 420 CE and appearing again in about 650 CE when the early Christian monk St Ciaran started writing down pagan myths that had been passed down verbally in Ireland for centuries.

Literal translation of the word “Tir na nOg”: “Tir” = land, “na” = “of” (or sometimes “for”), and “nOg” = “youth”. Tir na nOg, in mythology, is a land of eternal summer, the place where the faeries and gods live, where the dead live, and where souls rest before reincarnation. It is not surprising that in modern times the word has been translated into “Summerland”.

And what's weird about Tir na nOg is that supposedly it can also be accessed through faery mounds (those nice Irish hills) and caves... meaning you go underground and somehow end up in a land of eternal summer and sunshine...like the Underworld is simply a portal into Tir na nOg...

Other myths say it is accessed by sky, and others say a mortal must walk underwater. I wonder if there are any myths regarding fire, because it would be interesting if Tir na nOg were accessed through ALL the elements...

[Master Hoomer]

Ok I asked my wiccan friend who has been a wiccan for about 25 years....

they said the association with tir na whadeva...and summerland is tenuous....

He said Summerland is a modern inventiuon...with dubious contations....there is no defined afterworld...and a ssuch it is all pretty much left wide open for neo pagans.......

I think I'll stick to the underworld...at least that has resonance with many cultures world wide and is timeless....and exists...cause I have been there!

I dont know why I aslked...I guessed I wanted a clearer picture of what "neo pagans" beleived at the core of their beliefs...sadly it apperas it is undefinable.........

[Green Gaia]

Originally Posted by Master Hoomer

I dont know why I aslked...I guessed I wanted a clearer picture of what "neo pagans" beleived at the core of their beliefs...sadly it apperas it is undefinable.........

Why did you assume all Pagans would have the same answer? We are free to come to our own conclusions about the afterlife and call it whatever we feel is right. You're not going to get an across the board answer to anything dealing with Paganism, except for the reverance of Nature.

[Master Hoomer]

um because most pagans seem to assume that all pagans are withces...never mind....

Summerland is a wiccan term..originally hence my sticking to wiccan view point...I was actually after a core belief system of wicca....and why it has no "underworld"....

never meant to step on toes...

sorry

[Runt]

Don't worry, you're not stepping on toes. The thing is, most of the ideas in Wicca were borrowed from other sources. Especially Wiccan religious beliefs. Wicca is an attempt at reviving the "old religion". To do that, Wiccans had to revive the old beliefs of the old religion. But there are MANY "old religions" (Egyptian, Greek, Celtic, African, just to name a few), so not only Wiccan beliefs in general eclectic, but often the individual beliefs that one Wiccan adopts contradict the beliefs that another Wiccan adopts. For example, one Wiccan may say there is a God and a Goddess. Another may say there are many gods and goddesses. Another may say there is only one god, the Great Mother. One may say the God was born on Yule (Dec 21), another that he was born on Imbolc (February 2nd). One may say that the alter should go in the Northern Quarter, another that it should go in the Eastern Quarter, another in the North-Eastern Quarter, and another in the very Center of the Circle. One Wiccan may say sabbats must be done skyclad (naked), another may say it is okay to wear clothes, as long as they are ceremonial (like robes), and another may say that practicioners can wear whatever they want, that it is not important.

Also, with a revivial of the "old religion", two things may happen: the original people working to "revive" the old religion may know WHY a thing is practiced, but modern practicioners may not. The original people may know where an idea came from, while modern practicioners may not. Many Wiccans believe whatever tenants of Wicca that they want without knowing much about the origins or significance of their beliefs. My mother has been practicing Wicca her entire life (she was taught Wicca by HER mother), and yet she does not study the origins or the "why" of her beliefs.

Your friend is wrong. If you read the translations of myths about the Tuatha De Danann as they were recorded by St Ciaran, you will find that Tir na nOg is definitely not some modern invention. Even if it was not found in the oral myths of Celts back in ancient times, at the very most it was created around 650 CE, not in modern times. The WORD Summerland is a modern invention, to which modern pagans (Druids also believe in Summerland) have applied old ideas. Two things stand as truth: the ancient Celts believed that the soul, after death, went to Tir na nOg to rest and await rebirth. Modern pagans have adopted a similar idea, and invented a word to describe it that is very similar to the english translation of Tir na nOg, "Land of Youth".

[Master Hoomer]

Wicca is not really an old religion...its new....

it has NO Underworld! a KEY feature of ALL the "old religions" you mentioned!

I never said my friend stated tir na og is modern....
I think this is more of a garden of eden than a summerland....ie an original perfect place....

um celts had the underworld....the blessed isle is the underworld.....

I dunno...I dont care...just interested that many pagans have no concept of the underworld..this amuses me..as well its a real not inveted place..that can be seen world wide...

I guess I fell that modfern paganism seems to have some of its key hidden...denial of the underworld for instance.....

Some pagans even seem top think that God's are not real!.....
Jung has a lot to be spanked for.....

I disagree that tirnaog is the blessed isle...but I shall research more....

[Runt]

LMAO, I didn't say Wicca is an old religion, I said (in 2 posts now) that it is a NEW religion that tries to revive old ideas (the keyword being "tries")...

And hun, Tir na nOg IS the "Blessed Isle". It was (all at the same time) a mythical island to the West (direction of death and rebirth) of Tara (Ireland/Scotland) accessed by boat or by crossing underwater, an "underground" world accessed through faery mounds (hills) and caves, and apparently even a paradise in the sky that souls fly off to (the Tuatha De Danann, in one myth, were said to fly DOWN from Tir na nOg on clouds of fire to reach the mortal realm). It is supposedly the resting place of souls awaiting rebirth, and the "final" realm where souls reside forever, and the home of the Gods. Supposedly it was a land of eternal summer, where there were lots of parties and wine and song (altogether a pleasant place... like you said, an Eden-like paradise), and yet was also frightening (in the "Tain" the hero Cu Chulainn saw severed heads and ghostly hounds during his visit to Tir na nOg.)

Basically, the OLD ideas about Tir na nOg were all contradictory, yet all were accepted.

As for modern Wiccan beliefs on life after death, it depends on which Wiccan you are speaking to. Some believe after death they IMMEDIATLY are reborn. Some believe before rebirth they may go to some "other place" (whether Summerland, the Astral Plane, etc) to rest or observe loved ones in the mortal realm before rebirth. Some believe that they may be reborn INTO the Astral Plane, where they might live as guardian spirits or elementals. Some don't believe in reincarnation and believe that after death they retire to Summerland and live there, or simply rejoin the energy that is "God". Like I said, it depends on which Wiccan you are speaking to. It is very difficult to say "All Wiccans believe this" or "All Wiccans do not believe this", because all Wiccans believe different things.

However, I think you are right when you say that most Wiccans do not believe that their soul goes to an "Underworld". Even while acknowledging that part of Tir na nOg, most believe that the Underworld is just a transatory area that souls pass through on their way to Tir na nOg, rather than it being a place where souls linger. Like, a soul goes into a cave and suddenly "appears" in Summerland or Tir na nOg. Therefore, Tir na nOg/Summerland is a sort of "paradise", whereas the "Underworld" is simply a means of reaching this paradise.

[Master Hoomer]

:mrgreen: ok apologies......

my tradition deals pretty much soley with the underworld...so its rather important to me.....being the place of the faeries.... (elves as I have been informed to call them by my 'other half'...(long story..lol)not faries...)......

I see myself AS a grail seeker.....if I get around to it...I'll write an article for the knowledge base about the grail....and what it means to me...it wont be particularly academic...but there you go....

K..you asnwered my questions...wiccans dont have a coherant belief system at ALL!.... :roll:

so the isle of the blessed is where one goes before rebirth.....hmm how does this tie in with avalon?......

Ok just ruminating........ramble ramble

[Master Hoomer]

http://www.paganspath.com/magik/celtic/othrwrld.htm

this site is interesting...

"The Celtic Otherworld
One of the most common views of the Celtic Otherworld is held in the land of Annwfn. A paradise island also associated with King Arthur through the Welsh poem Preiddeu Annwfn which gives the best description of the island. The poem is a tale told by Taliesin who was a member of an expedition into the land of the Otherworld, presumably to search for the Holy Grail. " a sample.....

So essentially we are both right..I guess..the blessed Isle IS the UnderWorld....its just not called that.....they call it "Other world" but go on to say it is "Hades"...which clearly is again the UnderWorld..

Annwfn literally translated means "within the earth"....

Sadly the link about "Summerland" on this website is broken!..grrrrrr
But it does mention Celts believed in rebirth...which follows what I ahve been taught.... esentially Samsara...traveling around the wheel....

But Ypu know all this right? lol