Define a Pagan Witch? (priests, rituals, mysticism, tradition, beliefs)

[Rex]

Runt could you help us?

[Runt]

Sure thing =P

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Most simply, a pagan is a nature worshipper and a follower of old Gods and Goddesses.

A witch is generally a pagan who strives to achieve practical ends by psychic means, for good, useful, and healing purposes. We call this "magic". (Black magic is, of course, possible as well, but most pagans do not agree with the practice of magic that is intended to harm).

Not all pagans are witches. Wicca is a branch of neopaganism. Most Wiccans are witches, but (you guessed it), not all witches are Wiccans.

Many people, when they hear the word "Wiccan" think that it is synonymous with "Satanist". This is an incorrect perception, and has been encouraged by uneducated Satanists who erroneously name themselves Wiccan while practicing Satanist rites. Real Satanists wouldn't be caught dead labeling themselves Wiccan, for in their eyes Wicca (which restricts itself to "white magic") is far too restrictive to their way of life. However, they do call themselves witches and warlocks (though Wiccans do NOT call themselves warlocks).


Wiccans are either solitary or practice in covens (formal or not depends on the coven). Covens are known for their small group autonomy, with no gulf between the "priests" and the "congregation" (the general belief is that all Wiccans are priests and priestesses; however people with more knowledge will often temporarily step into a position to teach or direct the others).

If you are interested in reading up on it, I suggest taking a peek at A Witches' Bible by Stewart and Janet Farrar. However, understand that the information contained within it is biased toward the views of only one of many traditions, and the rituals within are designed for a coven, the materials covered are of a coven philosophy, and most pagans are solitary.

[Rex]

Why do you think some Pagans take on the "witch" title if it has such a negative connation?

[Runt]

I think some adopted the word "witch" to rebel against Christianity, which for so long has tried to squash witchcraft as "devil worship" and actually pretty much eradicated paganism throughout much of the world for several centuries. Some Witches chose to call themselves WITCHES as basically a "look, here we are, and there is nothing you can do about us" attitude. While not exactly the most positive approach, it was similar to the way the feminist movement took back the world "*****" to make it lose its power. Only, these witches were trying to make it lose its power as a negative word and make it powerful as a positive word.

Others chose the name because it seemed to fit their practices the best.

We may also have historical reasons.

In the late 1800s there was a surge of fascination in the occult (partially fueled by Romanticism in the earlier part of the century). Aleister Crowley was part of group called the Golden Dawn that freely mixed ancient paganism, witchcraft, Christian-gnostic teachings, ritual magic, mysticism, and misogyny. Rumor has it (though historically we cannot be certain if this is accurate or not) that a few years later Gardner got permission from Crowley to found his own order, and somehow instead of ending up with another Golden Dawn he came up with Wicca. He supposedly rewrote much of the Golden Dawn's material, eliminating pretty much everything but the drawing on the beliefs of ancient pagan religions, ritual magic, and mysticism (although, reading his paper "The Laws", I personally believe the misogyny was not completely eliminated). Over the years Wicca was redefined and molded into what we have today: while it has become much more eclectic, agnostic, (and in some traditions includes a feminist approach to religion that focuses more on the Goddess than the God) than Gardner's original view, it is still a highly ritualistic religion with a somewhat rigid structure for rituals.

I am willing to bet (though I can't be sure) that the name "witch" resurfaced in the Golden Dawn before Wicca was created, and was adopted by Gardner, embraced by the witches, and empowered to mean something positive instead of something negative.

[Azhria Lilu]

Not all pagans are witches (also known as Wiccans). But all Wiccans are pagan.

You've got this one slightly backwards here ..... Yes, not all pagans are witches... BUT... Wicca is a path in its own right and most pracitioners of wicca are witches.. but not all witches are wiccan.

Many people, when they hear the word "Wiccan" think that it is synonymous with "Satanist". This is an incorrect perception, and has been encouraged by uneducated Satanists who erroneously name themselves Wiccan while practicing Satanist rites.

Sorry, again, not strictly true. While the majority of people who have no information on wicca assume that witches and satanists are the same thing... true satanists wouldn't dream of calling themselves wiccan in any way, shape or form as to them Wicca is far too restricting for their way of life. They would term themselves witches and warlocks however - as they use the black arts.

If you are interested in reading up on it, I suggest taking a peek at A Witches' Bible by Stewart and Janet Farrar.

The witches bible will only give you the perspective of coven-based Wiccan teaching, a solitary Witch (like myself) would have a totally different perspective

I think they adopted as a kind of "in your face" to Christianity, which for so long had tried to squash paganism as "devil worship" and had actually pretty much eradicated paganism throughout much of the world. It is basically a "look, here we are, and there is nothing you can do about us" attitude.

Speaking from a personal perspective, I don't use the term witch as an "in your face" to anyone. I use it to define what I am in terms that people who aren't involved in my craft will recognise - a person who performs rites and rituals to supplement their life and worship the goddess.

< snip > historical significance.

we have lots of things that have historical significance.. I won't take up this thread listing them all tho

Aleister Crowley founded a "coven" (the Golden Dawn) that freely mixed ancient paganism, diabolical witchcraft, Christian-gnostic teachings, satanism, ritual magic, mysticism, and misogyny.

Sorry, again..... AC didn't found the Golden Dawn, and it wasn't a coven. The Golden Dawn was founded by William Westcott , Dr. Woodman and S.L. MacGregor Mathers in 1888. AC joined the Golden Dawn in 1898. Due to internal bickering, the Golden Dawn dissolved in 1903 and AC went on to conceive Thelema.

Then a few years later Gardner refined Crowley's version, eliminating pretty much everything but the drawing on ancient paganism, ritual magic, and mysticism.

This is not actually known for sure, but the majority of Pagans outside of the Gardnerian covens assume this is the case

Over the years Wicca was redefined and molded into what we have today (basically multiple eclectic pagan groups all over the nation and in Europe as well). However, I am willing to bet (though I can't be sure) that the decision to call ourselves "witches" was made my Crowley before Wicca was truly ever WICCA.

AC didn't have anything to do with Witches or Wicca, apart from his association with Gardner. He never called himself nor any one else a witch. Gardner claims that Wicca comes from an ancient term - Witta - but there has, as yet, been no confirmation of the word Wicca being in evidence before Gardner released any of his books.


Sorry to be awkward, but I just had to comment as I've been a witch for the last 15 years (I'm not wiccan) and pagan for 20

[Runt]

Argh, can't figure out how to do the quoting thing... so quotation marks will just have to do.

You said: "Yes, not all pagans are witches... BUT... Wicca is a path in its own right and most pracitioners of wicca are witches.. but not all witches are wiccan. "

Words words words! I stand corrected. :P In a moment I will edit the "definition" based on some of what you have told me. I only have a couple sources for the history of paganism/Wicca/witchcraft, and they are not very reliable :P

"While the majority of people who have no information on wicca assume that witches and satanists are the same thing... true satanists wouldn't dream of calling themselves wiccan in any way, shape or form as to them Wicca is far too restricting for their way of life. They would term themselves witches and warlocks however - as they use the black arts."

It depends on what kind of satanists you are speaking of. Remember that I said "encouraged by Satanists calling themselves Wiccan" and not "all Satanists think they are Wiccan". True satanists will not call themselves Wiccan; however, there are very few "true" satanists out there and there are MANY teenagers going for the "rebellion" factor and ignoring the spiritual factor of satanism. They do everything in their power to look Satanist, act Satanist, and make people think they are Satanist, without knowing ANYTHING about true Satanism, and yet, believing like many other people that Satanism is the Christian vision of diabolical witchcraft, and Wicca and that view of satanism are the same thing, they tell everyone that they are Wiccan and that "Wiccans are Satanist". That is why when a lot of non-pagans think of Wiccans, the first thing they see in their mind is a gothic teenager with an upside-down pentagram around their neck. And a lot of true Wiccans get confused about what Wicca is as well, and create an exterior image for themselves that actually encourages this view. It is one reason why I do not call myself Wiccan... there are too many negative connotations, and too many Wiccans who know nothing about their own religion. I am glad that you are not one of that latter group.

"The witches bible will only give you the perspective of coven-based Wiccan teaching, a solitary Witch (like myself) would have a totally different perspective"

I cited the Witches Bible because I was paraphrasing some of what it said. The information I paraphrased you did NOT disagree on... I do not really encourage people to get their religion from books at all anyway, but I always try to cite where I got my information. :lol:

I'll add your explaination for why you call yourself a witch to the relevant section.

However, for many Wiccans the name "witch" gives personal satisfaction because for so long it had negative connotations in Christian thought, and now they have the opportunity to take the word back and empower it as something good instead of something "evil". AND we take some pleasure in using what was once a "forbidden name". A few years ago we could not have said "I'm a witch" without running the risk of being alienated, disowned, ostracized, or even subjected to violence. And in the "old days" if you admitted to being a witch, you would likely be killed.

"We have many thing of historical significance".

I believe I was referring to things that Christians believed to be associated with witches with historically really WERE associated with pagans. Like brooms :P

"Sorry, again..... AC didn't found the Golden Dawn, and it wasn't a coven."

It was not a coven as we today define one, which is why I put the word coven in quotation marks. However, it was a mixture of the Golden Dawn's "group organization" and the idea of practicioners of ancient paganism meeting in groves in small groups that led to the development of the modern, Wiccan "coven". And despite the fact that Crowley did NOT found it (I will fix that too) and it later dissolved, it still stands that the Golden Dawn practiced something much closer to diabolical witchcraft and satanism than they practiced Wicca, and that sometime after that Gardner came along and SAID he had been given permission by Crowley to found his own group, though when Gardner got done creating his own version, it was something much closer to modern Wicca and not diabolical witchcraft that he produced. However, we still have that early connection. A revival of diabolical witchcraft came first (actually, it cannot really be called a revival because diabolical witchcraft really wasn't practiced in the old days of Christianity... it was a literary creation of Christianity used to discount other religions that members of the Golden Dawn decided to bring to life as a "religion".) Naturally, the word "witch" was adopted as well, though I will admit that it does seem to fit our religion rather well, despite NOT originally meaning "nature worshipper" but "devil worshipper".

[Azhria Lilu]

Argh, can't figure out how to do the quoting thing... so quotation marks will just have to do.

copy and paste the text you want to quote, then look at the icons above the post.. 2nd row, third icon (little speech bubble) – click it

Words words words! I stand corrected. In a moment I will edit the "definition" based on some of what you have told me. I only have a couple sources for the history of paganism/Wicca/witchcraft, and they are not very reliable

But important words nonetheless as if someone says they are a witch, it is important not to just assume they are wiccan.. whereas if they say they are wiccan you can safely assume they practice the craft too (unless they’re a fluffy bunny, then they’re just following fashion).

It depends on what kind of satanists you are speaking of.

I was speaking of TRUE Satanists.. I believe I said that lol

Remember that I said "encouraged by Satanists calling themselves Wiccan" and not "all Satanists think they are Wiccan".

I went back to reread what you’d written but you’ve edited the post

I am glad that you are not one of that latter group.

I’m not only not the latter, I’m also not wiccan lol

" I cited the Witches Bible because I was paraphrasing some of what it said. The information I paraphrased you did NOT disagree on... I do not really encourage people to get their religion from books at all anyway, but I always try to cite where I got my information.

I was simply adding that the viewpoint that this book was written from is coven-based and the perspective would be completely different if you spoke to a solitary

A few years ago we could not have said "I'm a witch" without running the risk of being alienated, disowned, ostracized, or even subjected to violence.

This is something I can’t comment on, as I do not know where you reside.. but I’ve been calling myself a witch for around 15 years without any abuse of any sort - but I'm in the UK and most people here are pretty laid back about that kinda thing.

And in the "old days" if you admitted to being a witch, you would likely be killed.

In the “old days”, if you were different in any way – unmarried spinster, sick, had warts, even a wooden leg or you simply didn’t fit.. your neighbours would cry “witch”.. there was also the political ramifications to consider – all the belongings of the accused went to the state/accuser so that was an added reason to point someone to the inquisitors. 90% of the people killed during the “burning times” weren’t even witches, just people who made the mistake of being different.

I believe I was referring to things that Christians believed to be associated with witches with historically really WERE associated with pagans. Like brooms

I wasn’t disagreeing with you, simply reiterating the point you made :lol:

It was not a coven as we today define one, which is why I put the word coven in quotation marks. However, it was a mixture of the Golden Dawn's "group organization" and the idea of practicioners of ancient paganism meeting in groves in small groups that led to the development of the modern, Wiccan "coven". And despite the fact that Crowley did NOT found it (I will fix that too) and it later dissolved, it still stands that the Golden Dawn practiced something much closer to diabolical witchcraft and satanism than they practiced Wicca, and that sometime after that Gardner came along and SAID he had been given permission by Crowley to found his own group, though when Gardner got done creating his own version, it was something much closer to modern Wicca and not diabolical witchcraft that he produced. However, we still have that early connection. A revival of diabolical witchcraft came first (actually, it cannot really be called a revival because diabolical witchcraft really wasn't practiced in the old days of Christianity... it was a literary creation of Christianity used to discount other religions that members of the Golden Dawn decided to bring to life as a "religion".) Naturally, the word "witch" was adopted as well, though I will admit that it does seem to fit our religion rather well, despite NOT originally meaning "nature worshipper" but "devil worshipper".

Mind if I quote a Thelemic pal of mine, as he’s far more qualified to respond to comments about Golden Dawn and Aleister Crowley than I am.

“The Golden Dawn never met in Groves or "practiced" Ancient Paganism. In fact, Golden Dawn would be considered a mystery school not a Coven and it practitioners were more monotheistic than anything - they used God Names etc etc etc as symbols of the psyche but not necessarily entities of their own accord. Nor were they, by any means, Diabolical. Yes, Goetic Invocations were, at times, involved - however this was to the effect of taking medicine to gain control over ones mental disorders. They did NOT consider themselves witches. They were extremely Scholarly people - some of them Doctors, writers, poets and other respectable people. They studied and translated 90 % of the Grimoires we have today. AC was member of the Golden Dawn but was by no means it's fonder He was however the Founder of the Outer Orders of the A.'.A.'. And OTH of the OTO . And the both of these requires good and honest hard work of a Completely Scholarly Nature. “




Forgot to add... witch has never meant "devil worshipper"...

The etymological roots could be several: among the canditates are German weihen ("consecrate") as well as the English word "victim" in its original meaning for someone killed in a religious ritual

Thus, a "witch" would signify nothing else but an ancient type of priestess. The Old English word wicce means wizard, and gives rise to the adjective "wicked". Wizard, again is thought to be related to the modern term "wise". A cautious interpretation gives us a witch being a woman of (presumably occult) knowledge.

[Runt]

Fluffy bunny? Either that term is used more than I thought... or I know you or someone you know?

You're not by any chance in Arizona, are you?

[Azhria Lilu]

but I'm in the UK and most people here are pretty laid back about that kinda thing.

nope, not in arizona LOL

Fluffy bunny is the "affectionate" term used in the whole pagan community about those who announce their sudden pagan faiths and proceed to wander around the woods wailing their heads off, talking about the "aura's of trees" and being general pains in the rears because they really don't have a clue what they're talking about :lol:

[Colin_Admin]

my eyese hurt after reading all of that.