Define a Pagan Witch? (priests, rituals, mysticism, tradition, beliefs)

[Azhria Lilu]

LOL so long as your brain didn't hurt

[Runt]

copy and paste the text you want to quote, then look at the icons above the post.. 2nd row, third icon (little speech bubble) – click it

Woo hoo! I did it!

I was speaking of TRUE Satanists.. I believe I said that lol

And I was speaking of WANNABE Satanists... I think we are really agreeing on this but believe we're disagreeing. If that made any sense.

I went back to reread what you’d written but you’ve edited the post

Yeah... I'm going to edit some of my other comments as well. You have a better grasp of Wiccan history than I do. Not being Wiccan myself, I find it hard to define them, but I suspect when this forum really gets up and running most of the people here will probably BE Wiccan, and I want my information to be correct and as unbiased as possible.

I was simply adding that the viewpoint that this book was written from is coven-based and the perspective would be completely different if you spoke to a solitary

Aye, in the editing I made a note on that. I'm thinking of a new topic for Recommended Reading and giving a little information about each book.

but I’ve been calling myself a witch for around 15 years without any abuse of any sort

Really? I've been dealing with the "you're going to go to hell", "someone should SEND you to hell", and "Jesus loves you and wants you to repent" stuff all my life...

90% of the people killed during the “burning times” weren’t even witches, just people who made the mistake of being different.

Which to me is so sad! I wonder if there were ANY people who practiced witchcraft back in the burning times... I'm sure there were people who, if they lived today, would have, and I know that people mixed "pagan superstition" into their Christian beliefs (old wives tales, for example), but were there any people who really practiced witchcraft... either "witchcraft" as Christians saw it or the "old ways" (since Wicca had not yet been created)? There had to be some people... but there is no real evidence of them as far as I know...

Nor were they, by any means, Diabolical.

But didn't Crowley style himself the "To Mega Therion 666" ("The Great Beast 666") and he and Mathers did elaborate "jokes" in which they pretended (or even believed that they really did?) to send demons and vampires after each other. Crowley was known for holding large orgies and openly performing sex magic (not that I'm saying sex magic is wrong) and marking his lovers with the "sign of the beast", and, of course performing spells, making potions, and a variety of other acts that Christians associate with diabolical witchcraft.

I am not saying that it was REALLY disbolical, or that they were wiccan, or even pagan. I'm saying that the Golden Dawn was literally trying to create an image of themselves that coorrelated with the Christian idea of what witches were really like. Yes, there were a lot of educated people in the group; but I think this was a group of educated individuals who were trying to challenge Christian beliefs...and succeeding.

witch has never meant "devil worshipper"...

Originally the word witch (or its roots) did not mean "devil worshipper". But the Christians changed the meaning. You have to remember that anyone who did not adhere COMPLETELY to Christian ideals were automatically devil worshippers in Christian eyes, and the Christians called these devil worshippers "Witches". NOW the word does not mean devil worshipper (though some Christians still believe it does, and frankly, IF their religion really IS right and ours really IS wrong, then we ARE devil worshippers, though we don't know it) and in pre-Christian/early Christian times it did not mean "devil worshipper" but something closer to "wise woman", but there was a time it did. And even now some groups of people associate the word "witch" with "devil worshipper", even though WE claim that witches are NOT devil worshippers (unless they are Satanist... then, incidentally, they are :P)

[Azhria Lilu]

Really? I've been dealing with the "you're going to go to hell", "someone should SEND you to hell", and "Jesus loves you and wants you to repent" stuff all my life...

I have a few sites with the perfect comeback for things like that, if you'd like the link

And I was speaking of WANNABE Satanists... I think we are really agreeing on this but believe we're disagreeing. If that made any sense.

You're probably right

Aye, in the editing I made a note on that. I'm thinking of a new topic for Recommended Reading and giving a little information about each book.

Good idea.. will help you out a little, if you'd like.

But didn't Crowley style himself the "To Mega Therion 666" ("The Great Beast 666") and he and Mathers did elaborate "jokes" in which they pretended (or even believed that they really did?) to send demons and vampires after each other. Crowley was known for holding large orgies and openly performing sex magic (not that I'm saying sex magic is wrong) and marking his lovers with the "sign of the beast", and, of course performing spells, making potions, and a variety of other acts that Christians associate with diabolical witchcraft.

In actual fact, Crowley's mother gave him the name The Great Beast - his autobiography explains it all - can't remember where about at the moment.. will come and edit the post with the page when I've found it

I think the biggest problem here is the continuous association with Christianity and their view of paganism as a whole - which appears to be the viewpoint you're looking at it from.

Diabolical Witchcraft, in pagan terms, does not exist. It's a Christian term for all witchcraft - an insult, if you will. To discuss this subject properly, it has to be moved away from the christianised opinion otherwise we will just go around in circles, arguing moot points.

Yes, of course Golden Dawn wanted to challenge Christian beliefs.... all religions that don't match do that. Every religion that doesn't follow the Christian faith is a challenge to Christianity. But the Golden Dawn was not thinking about Witches and setting themselves up as the Christian version of them, they were a group of scholars who performed Ritual/Higher Ceremonial Magick - the majority of them looked down on witchcraft as a lower form of magick.. parlour tricks, if you will. So, for them to be compared with witches would be an insult to them.

[Gnosti Seauton]

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law

I've been following this topic and have decided to jump in defense of some false Allegations set against my forefathers.

Yes, of course Golden Dawn wanted to challenge Christian beliefs

Azh I have to actually disagree here the GD as a whole wasn't out to challenge anything but to discover more about those things which were already known.

However I do agree with your next statement that any religion thats not Christianity does that naturally.

As For Crowley it's no secret that Crowley's brain was completely poisoned by his extreme Christain upbringing and yes it was his Mother that caused it along with everyone else in the plymouth brethern with the exception of his father, however he died when crowley was a boy. Thelema is not a Satanic ideology cult of any sort however there are "satanist" that claim to be Thelemites but there are also "Satanists" that claim to be Christian as well. Besides the entire Idea of Satan in a Thelemites eyes is entirely different from that of a Christians and entirely different than that of a satanists. One could even say that I myself am a "Satan Worshiper" however as Azh will Attest that means something entirely different to what you think.

My advice for what it's worth Runt, is read Crowley's Works and the Works of the GD Memebers (ie Israel Regardie etc etc) and decide for your self what it means to you instead of listening to the Christian and Anti - Thelemite Communtiy for your source.

I see great potential in you as you have accepted facts presented to you and realised certain mistakes (or at least your trying to save face) either way you have made an effort to learn in some way. Read the Classics read every book you can get your hand on and while reading put aside personal prejudices (and yes it is very hard to do ) and make your Decision (There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt. Do that and no other shall say nay.)

I won't go into the whole Qabalah here as I'm tired and don't have the patients at this moment to explain in full detail TO META THERION 666 in qabalistic light. But if you would like to Discuss it my AIM is TOMETASCAPEGOAT or MSN: King_Lamus@horus.kicks-***.org
And I will be happy to discuss any questions you have.

P.S. whats so wrong about being against Chritianity anways to be agianst Christians is to be for freedom (or at least most the time) I don't like the Christain way of thinking but I think the bible is a Great source of knowledge.

Love is the law, love under will.

[Azhria Lilu]

Hey sweetie.. glad you decided to join in (no smoochie emote, so you'll just have to imagine one )

I probably should have put a comma at the end of that sentence... the point I was making was that GD was as guilty as every other religion for challenging christianity - be it intentional or not... bad wording on my part

[Runt]

I have a few sites with the perfect comeback for things like that, if you'd like the link

Hell yeah! *cough*no pun intended*cough*

Good idea.. will help you out a little, if you'd like.

Yeah, I'd like. Whenever you see something inaccurate, feel free to point it out. I'll change my comment if I agree with you.

I think the biggest problem here is the continuous association with Christianity and their view of paganism as a whole - which appears to be the viewpoint you're looking at it from.

I believe Crowley consciously decided to imitate Christian views of paganism and witchcraft, partially for the shock effect, partially to try to demonstrate how the ideas of the Christians could be turned from something considered "evil" into another way to reach the divine. The particular demons he called on/pretended to call on/referred to are something of Christian creation. I think if he was being original, the religion he was practicing would NOT bear SO MANY resemblances to Christianity's image of "The Witch".

I'm just saying that modern witchcraft may have developed from a combination of the adoption of Christian views of witches and the revival of the "Old Religion", and then slowly but surely had tried to eradicate ALL Christian views (despite fluffy bunnies running around claiming to "sacrifice cats to Satan" and be able to levitate.)

However, I think we are going around in circles on this topic. You seem to respect Crowley and believe the Golden Dawn was completely original. I don't respect Crowley and I think that the Golden Dawn, while undoubtedly full of intellegent individuals, was just looking for attention and trying to create their own version of Satanism. (And I don't just say that they were a kind of Satanist group for no reason. While not actually worshipping Satan, they seem to pretty much adhere to the Nine Satanic Statements:

1. Indulgence, not abstinence.
2. Vital existence, not spiritual pipe dreams.
3. Undefiled wisdom, not hypocritical self-deceit.
4. Kindness to those deserving of it, not love wasted on ingrates.
5. Vengeance, not turning the other cheek.
6. Responsibility to the responsible, instead of concern for psychic vampires.
7. Man as just another animal - the most vicious of all. 7. Gratification of all ones desires.
8. The best friend that the Christian Church has had as he has kept it in business for centuries.

And they seem to fit into the mold that Satanists drew for themselves:

1. They do not worship a living deity.
2. Major emphasis is placed on the power and authority of the individual Satanist, rather than on a god or goddess.
3. They believe that "no redeemer liveth" - that each person is their own redeemer, fully responsible for the direction of their own life.

[Azhria Lilu]

Respect him? In a peculiar way, yes LOL He was a sick bunny in all sorts of ways and I'm no follower of his teachings but I have a healthy respect for his intelligence (and regardless of some of the sick twisted things he did, he was extremely intelligent) ... Just because I don't follow his path or agree with a lot of what he did, doesn't mean I can't respect him I respect wild lions too .. wouldn't sit down to a meal with one.. but.. I'm sure you get where I'm going

As for Golden Dawn I'm totally unbiased about them and any other religion on the planet .. live and let live is my motto again, I'm not a follower of GD, OTO, Thelema, or any other combination thereof I don't follow any path in particular, altho I have leanings towards the egyptian magick paths and work mostly with the egyptian pantheon.

What I'm doing is taking the opposite stance to show you the different views that can be seen about the same subject, is all.. I have a tendency to do that... ask Gnosti, he'll tell you how infuriating I can be

[Runt]

Agh... lmao... this gets really confusing when there are enough posts to fit in multiple pages.

Azhria Lilu: To I found Gnosti Seauton's comment but couldn't find my response to YOU and I was like... "Wait, do I have to REWRITE it?!?"

To Gnosti: I'm sorry... I wasn't ignoring you :P Are you the one who gave Azhria the quote earlier? If so, thanks, it helped clarify some stuff for me. :P

GNOSTI said:

Thelema is not a Satanic ideology cult of any sort

I'm not trying to be contrary or biased or anything. I just don't know anything. I think I may be TOO agnostic... anyway, I'm just wondering... I read (in the History of Witchcraft, I think) that Golden Dawn called on demons created by Christianity... and they seem to adhere to some Satanic beliefs. However, I can't be SURE (my source might not be reliable, I might be misinterpreting--I don't know much about Christianity, Satanism, OR Wicca... though I'm trying to learn...) If they really did call on demons (complete with their Christian names), were they just playing around to **** people off, or did they really believe what they were calling Christian demons? And if the latter... were they just borrowing the name, or did they really believe in the Christian concept of a demon (I know other cultures believe in demons as well, but I THINK GD was using Christian names...)

I understand that even if they WERE calling on demons and using the Christian names, it does not mean they were Satanist or anything. If we can work with ancient gods and goddess, like for example, I too call on Egyptian gods without being Egyptian myself, then they can certainly do the same. Symbols, right? You could pray to a light bulb and get meaning out of it if you associated the light bulb with something spiritual (inspiration? :P)

My advice for what it's worth Runt, is read Crowley's Works and the Works of the GD Memebers (ie Israel Regardie etc etc) and decide for your self what it means to you instead of listening to the Christian and Anti - Thelemite Communtiy for your source.

I will... if I can find it in my library. We have Golden Dawn, and some other materials, but they seem to shy away from Crowley, Satanism, and everything but the most commercial of Wiccan books.

P.S. whats so wrong about being against Chritianity anways to be agianst Christians is to be for freedom (or at least most the time)

I try not to be "against" anyone. I respect everyone to a certain degree (though some less so than others). I figure if people are responsible, their religion is perfectly acceptable. It is when people use religion to hurt others (mentally, physically, emotionally) that they are not-so-respectable. It is usually individuals that lose my respect, not religions.

[Azhria Lilu]

It is usually individuals that lose my respect, not religions.

A good attitude to take

[Gnosti Seauton]

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law

try not to be "against" anyone. I respect everyone to a certain degree (though some less so than others). I figure if people are responsible, their religion is perfectly acceptable. It is when people use religion to hurt others (mentally, physically, emotionally) that they are not-so-respectable. It is usually individuals that lose my respect, not religions.

I would agree with you and it was simply bad wording on my part I am not against Christianinty or Christians as a whole. I am against anyone who would in any way infrenge on the Will of others. A good case in point of this dis-ease is the entire going on's of the FCC here in America and why all because some woman Showed her breast (supposedly by accident) on T.V. now people are being told what they can and cannot hear or see on Radio and T.V. These people are being in some way lead by the dogmas of a "Christian"and society and it's extreme advocates. I use the quotes to signfy what I believe to be false Christianity, the Christianity of cowards and control freaks. I see Christianity as a potentially potent and beautiful form of worship if it hadn't been mucked up in exoteric dogma.

In a peculiar way, yes LOL He was a sick bunny in all sorts of ways and I'm no follower of his teachings but I have a healthy respect for his intelligence (and regardless of some of the sick twisted things he did, he was extremely intelligent

What did he do that was so sick. I mean I agree that some of what he did may have been a bit distasteful but not sick or at least not sick by today's standards. You must always keep in mind that Crowley lived quite some time ago and was measured by the standards of his day. You can now go to any pub on a friday night and witness many of the same actions Crowley practised taking place in public.

What was Taboo yesterday is common practise today. If one were to judge Crowley by todays standards he would appear to be a Miscreant (sure thats spelled wrong) but not Diabolical. Crowley never sacrificed human life. Crowley never Canabalised anyone. Crowley never raped or mudered (actually there was that one inncedent where he was being robbed but it was either kill or be killed)

He did use blood in some rituals, he was an avid drug user, and he did have a distaste for female hood but with a mother like his who could rightly blame him. He did preform sex magick and there is absolutley nothing wrong with that at all in fact it's much better to have sex for ritual use than just slap happy getting laid as happens everynight all over teh world.

He was also a wonderful poet, an artist of fantastic skill, a lover of freedom and of humanity as is appearant from any of his writtings, and he was a prankster and loner. But above all he was Magician of great magnitude and even the most avid Crowley-hater can't deny him that.

Crowley had nothing to do with Satanism at all neither did the GD, OTO, A.'.A.'. . I have read the History of Witchcraft and 80% is ******** 5% hogwash and 5% is historically proven fact the rest is pure hear se. GD members were not wiccans They were "Scientific illumanatists."

The GD did not use "Christian" demons. In fact the demons that are used are much much older than the christian movement hell their older than the Christ it self. if I had my server up I would link to my Lon Milo Duequette interview it's very enlightning but abit long but is very well worth the time spent listening. As it explains what is meant when a Thelemite or GD boy mentions one. Ahh here it is Lon Milo Interview
But the fact is is that there was nothing diabolical about any group your talking about.

In fact the only Devil in Thelema is the Demon of Division and Dispersion which is named Chorozon. It is the Creator and Sustainer of illusion. That is of Duality. Also here is a link to Crowley e-library it requires no library card and you can go anytime. Libri of Crowley

Crowley never tried to "go against Christianity" Anton Levay was the one who did that. Not Crowley. It's pretty much impossible to explain anything in these cases as it requires a subjective intimacy with the practices to know just why things shouldd be that way and why some rituals were preformed.

Like I said before the best advice I can give (and I even gave teh resources too) is to read and decide for yourself if you still feel the way you do now then fine but at least you've searched out more than one source and from both prespectives and went straight to the source of the hooplah. At the very least you may learn something new.

Love is the law, love under will.