Religious Education Forum  

Welcome Guest to ReligiousForums.com . You are currently not registered. When you become registered you will be able to interact with our large base of already registered users discussing topics. Some annoying Ads will also disappear when you register. Registering doesn't cost a thing and only takes a few seconds. We provide areas to chat and debate all World Religions. Please go to our register page!
Home Who's Online Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   Religious Education Forum / Discuss Individual Religions (DIR) / Neopagan or Revival Religions DIR / Paganism DIR
Sitemap Popular RF Forums REGISTER Search Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-17-2009, 11:26 AM
MoonWater's Avatar
MoonWater Offline
Religion: Syncretic
Title:Warrior Bard
Shield of Labour: Awarded for admirable hard work and development of a cause - Issue reason: Admirable hard work at making this a better forum. 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Bay Area, California
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,648
Frubals: 340
MoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mime
Default Lilith and Paganism

I've heard the story of Lilith as Adam's first wife and this aroused my curiosity to research her more. In the process I discovered brief notes about how Paganism has come to view Lilith very differently, not as a rebellious, vengeful, baby killer; but in a sense as a symbol of feminism and the fight for female equality. I'm wanting to do more research on this aspect of Lilith and thought it might be neat to have a thread here where people could post up what tidbits, web links, and books they were aware of that could offer more insight.

So has anyone else here heard of Lilith in association with Paganism? And if you have what do you know of her in regards with this association?

Please remember this is in the Pagan DIR
__________________


"Tomorrow, all will be known
and you're not alone
so don't be afraid in the dark and cold
'cause the bard's songs will remain
they all will remain.

In my thoughts and in my dreams
They're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits dwarves and men
and elves come close your eyes
you can see them too."

Blind Guardian: The Bard's Song

Last edited by MoonWater; 12-17-2009 at 08:34 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-17-2009, 11:31 AM
Storm's Avatar
Storm Offline
Religion: Rogue Panentheist/ UU
Title:Proud Queer
Shield of Valour: Awarded for heroic and decisive victory in the battlefield of debate - Issue reason:  Shield of The Ambassador: Awarded for being a true herald of a belief system - Issue reason:  Shield of 40,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 40,000 posts - Issue reason: That's a lot of posts! 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Lubbock, TX (sigh)
Gender: Female
Posts: 43,770
Frubals: 2084
Storm just wants to tickle your frubals until they giggle like schoolgirlsStorm just wants to tickle your frubals until they giggle like schoolgirls
Storm just wants to tickle your frubals until they giggle like schoolgirlsStorm just wants to tickle your frubals until they giggle like schoolgirls
Default

I don't know much of the historical Lilith, but the Dianic movement (among others) has completely reinvented her.
__________________
We do not fear the night, who have loved the stars so fondly.

Check out my shiny new blog, Knitting In Church!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-17-2009, 12:26 PM
Mr Cheese Offline
Religion: Gnosticism
Title:BANNED
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Not near Sweden
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,579
Frubals: 413
Mr Cheese surprised your frubals with crabsMr Cheese surprised your frubals with crabsMr Cheese surprised your frubals with crabsMr Cheese surprised your frubals with crabsMr Cheese surprised your frubals with crabsMr Cheese surprised your frubals with crabsMr Cheese surprised your frubals with crabs
Default

lillith is often placed at the bottom of the tree of evil in satanic kabbalah and soem golden dawn based sytems

although she is also placed at Yesod, quite rightly, being a moon Goddess...and essentially the Goddess of the genitals...
Cycles of the Aeons | A Valentinian Exposition
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-17-2009, 08:35 PM
MoonWater's Avatar
MoonWater Offline
Religion: Syncretic
Title:Warrior Bard
Shield of Labour: Awarded for admirable hard work and development of a cause - Issue reason: Admirable hard work at making this a better forum. 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Bay Area, California
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,648
Frubals: 340
MoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mime
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
I don't know much of the historical Lilith, but the Dianic movement (among others) has completely reinvented her.
It is those reinventions that I'm interested in primarily. Do you know anything about how the Dianic movement has reinvented her?
__________________


"Tomorrow, all will be known
and you're not alone
so don't be afraid in the dark and cold
'cause the bard's songs will remain
they all will remain.

In my thoughts and in my dreams
They're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits dwarves and men
and elves come close your eyes
you can see them too."

Blind Guardian: The Bard's Song
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-17-2009, 10:56 PM
Storm's Avatar
Storm Offline
Religion: Rogue Panentheist/ UU
Title:Proud Queer
Shield of Valour: Awarded for heroic and decisive victory in the battlefield of debate - Issue reason:  Shield of The Ambassador: Awarded for being a true herald of a belief system - Issue reason:  Shield of 40,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 40,000 posts - Issue reason: That's a lot of posts! 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Lubbock, TX (sigh)
Gender: Female
Posts: 43,770
Frubals: 2084
Storm just wants to tickle your frubals until they giggle like schoolgirlsStorm just wants to tickle your frubals until they giggle like schoolgirls
Storm just wants to tickle your frubals until they giggle like schoolgirlsStorm just wants to tickle your frubals until they giggle like schoolgirls
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonWater View Post
It is those reinventions that I'm interested in primarily. Do you know anything about how the Dianic movement has reinvented her?
A bit.

She's come to be seen as the original feminist icon, cast out of Eden for refusing to submit.
__________________
We do not fear the night, who have loved the stars so fondly.

Check out my shiny new blog, Knitting In Church!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12-17-2009, 10:58 PM
Gentoo's Avatar
Gentoo Offline
Religion: En Valar.
Title:The Feisty Penguin
Shield of Love: Awarded for demonstrating great love and kindness to all around - Issue reason: This award has been given to you by your peers and is well deserved. Shield of 10,000 Thoughts: Awarded for contributing 10,000 posts - Issue reason: For 10,000 posts!  Congrats! 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SE Massachusetts
Gender: Gender-Neutral
Posts: 10,033
Frubals: 1136
Gentoo noticed that frubals get all wrinkly after 4 hours in a hot tub
Gentoo noticed that frubals get all wrinkly after 4 hours in a hot tubGentoo noticed that frubals get all wrinkly after 4 hours in a hot tubGentoo noticed that frubals get all wrinkly after 4 hours in a hot tub
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
A bit.

She's come to be seen as the original feminist icon, cast out of Eden for refusing to submit.
This is what I've heard...
__________________
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritadi

Walking thru the forest, we do not fear the night
The stars above guide us, and keep our paths in light
And journey on from dusk til dawn

Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12-17-2009, 11:35 PM
smitten508's Avatar
smitten508 Offline
Religion: Catholic
Title:Sophmore Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Lucedale
Gender: Male
Posts: 134
Frubals: 29
smitten508 is the leader of a covert group of mutant frubals
Default

The new lilith is the woman that wouldn't sit at the back of the bus... I can't give any concrete book titles, but many pagan books have come to veiw her as the patron goddess of those women who "don't need a man". This is also a semi-Christian veiw of her as well, although with a slightly different slant.lol. But she is indeed a beautiful expression of femininity among a patriarchal society.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-05-2010, 07:48 PM
WayFarer's Avatar
WayFarer Offline
Title:Rogue Scholar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 266
Frubals: 56
WayFarer has a reputation beyond reputeWayFarer has a reputation beyond repute
Default

If I may give a brief run through of one of the Lilith histories for those who find this to be their starting stop for research on her...

Our story begins in the Garden of Eden...
God creates Adam. This is well and good.
God's right-hand-man and second in charge Samuel (all angels names are titles/attributes and end in "el" indicating they are part of/aligned with God) thinks he'll help out and create Lilith.
Adam is kind of a jerk since God created him (first) and thinks Lilith should be subservient. Lilith doesn't see it that way.
Adam whines to God about it and God gets upset that Samuel overstepped his boundary. God tell Samuel to get rid of Lilith.
Samuel tells Lilith to leave Eden. See goes east of Eden. There Samuel creates for her a man. His name is Asmodeus (sometimes Asmodean). This is unbeknownst to God.
God then makes Eve from Adam to show she comes from him and is a part of him hoping this would make her feel subservient to him.
After a bit Samuel gets upset about Eve and his being slighted for trying to help out and so he goes and tempts her with the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge to make her look bad in God's eyes.
It gets God mad at both Adam and Eve. He kicks them out of Eden.
About this time He figures out what Samuel has been up to, Samuel gets stripped of his name/title and things go to Hell.
We hit the Cain and Able story. Cain offs Able and then goes east of Eden to the Land of Nod and finds a wife. (How come most people don't say "A what? Where did she come from?" I'll never know. There are some interesting stories here about Cain meeting Lilith and his turning his back on God's forgiveness because he can not forgive himself, but these aren't really a part of this outline. Just "FYI".)
So from here we have regular people (other children of Adam and Eve), demons and things-that-go-bump-in-the-night (children of Lilith and Asmodeus), and witches and various other sorts (children of Cain and Lilith's daughter).
That's the quick and a generally accepted version.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-05-2010, 08:04 PM
MoonWater's Avatar
MoonWater Offline
Religion: Syncretic
Title:Warrior Bard
Shield of Labour: Awarded for admirable hard work and development of a cause - Issue reason: Admirable hard work at making this a better forum. 
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Bay Area, California
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,648
Frubals: 340
MoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mimeMoonWater translates frubal comments into little skits and performs them in mime
Default

wayfarer this thread is specifically about the character of lilith as it pertains to pagansim and the feminist movement, not the old lilith myths of christianity.

though I am curious as to your source for that version as it is one I have never heard of before. The one I came across most was the one where Lilith left of her own volition when adam demanded she be subordinate to him. On the way out she spoke the name of god which gave her great power. God sent to angels to retrieve her but she refused to come back so god cursed her to lose 100 of her children every day. Lilith decided to return the favor by saying that 100 of god's children would die everyday.That's the one I keep coming across in my research so I'd like to know where you got the one you put forth
__________________


"Tomorrow, all will be known
and you're not alone
so don't be afraid in the dark and cold
'cause the bard's songs will remain
they all will remain.

In my thoughts and in my dreams
They're always in my mind
These songs of hobbits dwarves and men
and elves come close your eyes
you can see them too."

Blind Guardian: The Bard's Song
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-06-2010, 05:48 AM
WayFarer's Avatar
WayFarer Offline
Title:Rogue Scholar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 266
Frubals: 56
WayFarer has a reputation beyond reputeWayFarer has a reputation beyond repute
Default

Moonwater
I was aware that primary area of focus was Lilith in relation to paganism. And if read with another view that is were the time line I put forth would take it there. It has shows Lilith as the primary cause for witches. Now admittedly this is from a Jewish/Christian/Islamic (to a degree) perspective, however it is just an origin of Lilith time line. Not what is done with it. Certain groups take that timeline (or variation thereof) and make her a focus for mankind's woes. Another and icon for feminism. Another the source of witch(s)/witchcraft. Some have a different Lilith story all together, though a good number of those still start her out in Eden and with Adam so it is hard to get away from her association with the book of Genesis.

As to my source for the time line, well lots and lots of research. Specifically studying a lot of Jewish writings. From folklore, the Talmud to Kabbalah. I have read a few stories of interest - years ago - that were Islamic folklore on Lilith, but that was a while back.

It was offered as a quick origin pseudo-historical timeline for Storm and/or anyone else who did not have much info on her origins and encourage all who are interested to study all you can get your hands on about her. There is quite a bit out there if your interested and want to spend the time. I must admit that most of my research was done the old school way with books and often in libraries instead of the internet because the world wide web did not exist when I did most of my research on her.

Oh there is an interesting (Stregan?) version of her origin somewhere that associates her with Diana (as another name perhaps?) and Ardia. Stories abound.

Last edited by WayFarer; 01-06-2010 at 05:58 AM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:40 AM.


Copyright 2014 Advameg, Inc.

SEO by vBSEO ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.