What Orthodox Judaism Really Believes

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by dantech

You are right, and I am sorry for that. I should be more respectful, and will indeed try to be from now on. It is just, that the way he/she was talking about these leaders really irritated me.

That was a rather impressive (and Jewish) post. Thanks.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule

I guess I'm still unclear as to why the reference effected the change. Was it simply because the reference asserted Hell or was it because the reference powerfully explicated a justification for it?

Actually, it wasn't. It was explained to me by someone who knows more than I do, and I can't give over their lesson.

I can give that example. And as I said, I'm not sure that I DO believe in eternal torment. But I acknowledge that the lessons learned from the Agadita were valuable, even if the obvious conclusions were allegorical and not to be taken seriously.

Look - there is an expression "If you don't believe in any Agadita, you are a heretic. If you believe in ALL the Agadita, you are a fool." I'm not sure what to make of this portion. I DO know that it is a powerful and very graphic story.

Is the part we are supposed to come away with that there is eternal torment? I don't know. After all, it was also pointed out to me that "Maybe they've been forgiven. After all, so much time has passed..."

The point of the lesson could just as easily have been that the powerful images in the story were to demonstrate how serious the crimes and sins of these people were, both in their person, and what was done in their names and memories.

The legacy that people leave after they die is sometimes a more powerful testament to their lives than what they personally accomplished in their lifetimes.

Perhaps it is talking about what a person might feel once they've seen what people have done because of their influence on the world. Maybe that is the lesson.

Please accept that there are many thoughts I have about this, and that I haven't locked down any as "the answer" but that I'm open to the possibility that it could happen.

Like Flankerl said, I haven't died, so I can't tell you personally what goes on in the World to Come. I CAN tell you what I learned, and why I can reconcile what I've learned to other things that I've learned.

Can I internalize all of it? Not necessarily.

Sometimes things make sense more than others.

I've grown up a bit since we had a similar discussion last year. I know what I've learned. How I've incorporated what I've learned... It's not always easy to explain.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by dantech

You are right, and I am sorry for that. I should be more respectful, and will indeed try to be from now on. It is just, that the way he/she was talking about these leaders really irritated me.

Good deal. You posted this before I finished my rather long post that took me a bit to write from start to finish.

We've had problems with this before.

I'm glad you recognized what you were doing and will work to correct yourself.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by dantech

But I was under the impression that I was indeed talking to Orthodox Jews here... Am i not in the Orthodox section? It is misleading if the people in this forum are not Orthodox.

The people asking questions may NOT be Orthodox, or even Jewish.

While some of the people here ARE Orthodox Jews, there is a way of explaining things to people who are asking questions that is the right way, and there is a wrong way.

Remember the teachers of Mussar. Do not do a disservice to yourself or the concept of Orthodox Jewry by being condescending, no matter WHAT you are explaining.

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Actually, it wasn't. It was explained to me by someone who knows more than I do, and I can't give over their lesson.

I can give that example. And as I said, I'm not sure that I DO believe in eternal torment. But I acknowledge that the lessons learned from the Agadita were valuable, even if the obvious conclusions were allegorical and not to be taken seriously.

Look - there is an expression "If you don't believe in any Agadita, you are a heretic. If you believe in ALL the Agadita, you are a fool." I'm not sure what to make of this portion. I DO know that it is a powerful and very graphic story.

Is the part we are supposed to come away with that there is eternal torment? I don't know. After all, it was also pointed out to me that "Maybe they've been forgiven. After all, so much time has passed..."

The point of the lesson could just as easily have been that the powerful images in the story were to demonstrate how serious the crimes and sins of these people were, both in their person, and what was done in their names and memories.

The legacy that people leave after they die is sometimes a more powerful testament to their lives than what they personally accomplished in their lifetimes.

Perhaps it is talking about what a person might feel once they've seen what people have done because of their influence on the world. Maybe that is the lesson.

Please accept that there are many thoughts I have about this, and that I haven't locked down any as "the answer" but that I'm open to the possibility that it could happen.

Like Flankerl said, I haven't died, so I can't tell you personally what goes on in the World to Come. I CAN tell you what I learned, and why I can reconcile what I've learned to other things that I've learned.

Can I internalize all of it? Not necessarily.

Sometimes things make sense more than others.

I've grown up a bit since we had a similar discussion last year. I know what I've learned. How I've incorporated what I've learned... It's not always easy to explain.

That was a wonderful answer. We're fortunate having you around.

[dantech]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Actually, it wasn't. It was explained to me by someone who knows more than I do, and I can't give over their lesson.

I can give that example. And as I said, I'm not sure that I DO believe in eternal torment. But I acknowledge that the lessons learned from the Agadita were valuable, even if the obvious conclusions were allegorical and not to be taken seriously.

Look - there is an expression "If you don't believe in any Agadita, you are a heretic. If you believe in ALL the Agadita, you are a fool." I'm not sure what to make of this portion. I DO know that it is a powerful and very graphic story.

Is the part we are supposed to come away with that there is eternal torment? I don't know. After all, it was also pointed out to me that "Maybe they've been forgiven. After all, so much time has passed..."

The point of the lesson could just as easily have been that the powerful images in the story were to demonstrate how serious the crimes and sins of these people were, both in their person, and what was done in their names and memories.

The legacy that people leave after they die is sometimes a more powerful testament to their lives than what they personally accomplished in their lifetimes.

Perhaps it is talking about what a person might feel once they've seen what people have done because of their influence on the world. Maybe that is the lesson.

Please accept that there are many thoughts I have about this, and that I haven't locked down any as "the answer" but that I'm open to the possibility that it could happen.

Like Flankerl said, I haven't died, so I can't tell you personally what goes on in the World to Come. I CAN tell you what I learned, and why I can reconcile what I've learned to other things that I've learned.

Can I internalize all of it? Not necessarily.

Sometimes things make sense more than others.

I've grown up a bit since we had a similar discussion last year. I know what I've learned. How I've incorporated what I've learned... It's not always easy to explain.

It is true that what a person leaves behind is what will make this person go higher in Hashem's eyes, or lower... If a man dies and leaves behind wonderful children who were raised in the way of the Torah. These kids accomplish good deeds and teach more people to do so, then it creates a chain reaction. It is just like a pyramid effect. Any possible positive that will come somehow from a man even 1000 years after his death, will help him gain reward in the Olam Haemet. Where is the opposite is true as well. Anything negative will reduce his prize as well.

hope this was helpful.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by Jayhawker Soule

That was a wonderful answer. We're fortunate having you around.

Thank you.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by dantech

It is true that what a person leaves behind is what will make this person go higher in Hashem's eyes, or lower... If a man dies and leaves behind wonderful children who were raised in the way of the Torah. These kids accomplish good deeds and teach more people to do so, then it creates a chain reaction. It is just like a pyramid effect. Any possible positive that will come somehow from a man even 1000 years after his death, will help him gain reward in the Olam Haemet. Where is the opposite is true as well. Anything negative will reduce his prize as well.

hope this was helpful.

Thank you. It was good to learn this bit over again, and you explained it very effectively.

But is this the direct lesson of that story in Gittin 57a? That is the source of my question.

There are many lessons that could be learned from this bit of Agadita.

[dantech]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Thank you. It was good to learn this bit over again, and you explained it very effectively.

But is this the direct lesson of that story in Gittin 57a? That is the source of my question.

There are many lessons that could be learned from this bit of Agadita.

I am not 100% sure it is from Gittin but this is very general knowledge. It comes up quite a few times as to how some people have raised significantly in the Olam Haemet simply from having their children say the Kaddish for them. Or reading a Haftarah in their names (Leilouy Nishmat)

For those who dont know, "Leilouy Nishmat", in Hebrew, means "To raise the Soul of" When you do a prayer or a good deed by saying "Leilouy Nishmat Name of Deceased" you are doing this good deed and asking Hashem to give the merits to this person. A person could no longer do good or bad deeds after his death. However, he could have millions of people doing them in his name. A good example would be All the Lubavitchers who do everything in the name of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. This means this Rebbe is getting alot of credit for stuff he is no longer doing himself.

Another good example would be those Nazis who still hate and commit crimes in the name of Hitler. Hitler is the cause of these hateful acts and his soul is being punished for them constantly.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by dantech

I am not 100% sure it is from Gittin but this is very general knowledge. It comes up quite a few times as to how some people have raised significantly in the Olam Haemet simply from having their children say the Kaddish for them. Or reading a Haftarah in their names (Leilouy Nishmat)

For those who dont know, "Leilouy Nishmat", in Hebrew, means "To raise the Soul of" When you do a prayer or a good deed by saying "Leilouy Nishmat Name of Deceased" you are doing this good deed and asking Hashem to give the merits to this person. A person could no longer do good or bad deeds after his death. However, he could have millions of people doing them in his name. A good example would be All the Lubavitchers who do everything in the name of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. This means this Rebbe is getting alot of credit for stuff he is no longer doing himself.

Another good example would be those Nazis who still hate and commit crimes in the name of Hitler. Hitler is the cause of these hateful acts and his soul is being punished for them constantly.

We are having a failure to communicate.

I understand the concept. Completely. I've made mention of it, if not in this thread, then in other places.

My point in bringing it up so in depth in the post that you first quoted of mine to Jay was to explain my reaction to the Agadita in Gittin, particularly the acceptance of the possibility of the concept of Hell, or at least eternal torment. There are many lessons to be learned from that piece of Agadita, and I was listing the possibilities of what they were, and the one you are trying to explain to me was only one of the many I was offering.

I thank you for trying to explain the concept. But in this circumstance, further instruction is not necessary. I understand the concept. I was making a different point.