Aqualung vs Buttercup (Kingdom, choice, church, sin, bible)

[Buttercup]

Squirt,

This site is really slow at night for some reason for me...it's frustrating. It's taken me 15 mintues just to post the little bit that I have. After this I am getting offline.

This whole debate started from another thread where Aqua said those people that accepted Christ and repented but weren't baptized while on earth go to 'spirit prison'. Most Prostestant Christians believe if you have accepted Christ and repented of your sins you are saved and then receive the Holy Spirit. IF you die before being baptized, you still go to be with Christ. This was the original point started in another place and brought here.

I want to know where the LDS come up with the idea that if you accept Christ as Lord and Saviour, repent of your sins but die before baptism takes place, you go to spirit prison. That's where we took off on the notion that the water does not save you. Your beliefs do. Baptism is a good thing and advisable as we keep saying. But no where does it teach in scripture that you go to 'spirit prison' if you die without baptism. Show us where it says this please.

[FFH]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

This whole debate started from another thread where Aqua said those people that accepted Christ and repented but weren't baptized while on earth go to 'spirit prison'. Most Prostestant Christians believe if you have accepted Christ and repented of your sins you are saved and then receive the Holy Spirit. IF you die before being baptized, you still go to be with Christ. This was the original point started in another place and brought here.

I want to know where the LDS come up with the idea that if you accept Christ as Lord and Saviour, repent of your sins but die before baptism takes place, you go to spirit prison. That's where we took off on the notion that the water does not save you. Your beliefs do. Baptism is a good thing and advisable as we keep saying. But no where does it teach in scripture that you go to 'spirit prison' if you die without baptism. Show us where it says this please.

If you have accepted Christ, and have died, but were never baptized, you will be given the opportunity to accept the ordinance of baptism in the next life. This is why Latter-day Saints do baptisms for the dead.

Edit: Spirit Prison is for those that have not accepted Christ as their Savior. Spirit Paradise is for those that have accepted Christ as their Savior.

[dawny0826]

I'm going to type this up tonight...to give you gals more support on my POV.

First off, I know that you two are LDS. If you were to label me denominationally...my approach to worship and the Bible, lies somewhere between Charismatic and Pentecostal. I attend a Pentecostal church, although, we don't "advertise" as being such. We're more so "advertised" as being non-denominational.

All excerpts in this post are from a little booklet called "The New Birth" by Kenneth E. Hagin. If you know anything about RHEMA...you'll know of Kenneth Hagin.

We believe VERY MUCH in the rebirth. And the "rebirth" or newbirth is discussed in John...Chapter 3:1-21.

I'm going to kind of break down my beliefs of how one becomes a Christian...and undergoes the rebirth.

(Anthing I take from this book word for word...("The New Birth" by Kenneth E. Hagin)...I'll post as a quote.)

"Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new."

2 Corinthians 5:17

According to the Bible, when we accept Christ into our lives, in essence...we're dying to live. We're laying our lives down to accept a new life in Christ, Jesus.

When you accept Christ...repent for your sins and open your heart to Him...you receive the Holy Spirit. At our Church, the Pastor and even members of the congregation lay hands on you. And it's an amazing experience...when I went up to the front of the church and received...it was the most amazingly spiritual experience of my entire life. I literally felt a spritual release of all the baggage I had carried my entire life...all the sin...the hurt...the worry...it dissipated. In a spiritual sense...I felt Satan lose his grip on my heart and then felt the warmth and fire of the Holy Spirit come upon me...enveloping me...filling me. There was no doubt that I had received the Lord Jesus Christ. No doubt. I felt a freedom and have felt a freedom since then that is just awesome. There is no peace like the peace that is found in Christ.

Once I had the Holy Spirit working within me...I began to change. The world...all the uglies of the world just seemed smaller and smaller and wholesome things began to mean more to me. I was literally changing from within. I was a new person. This is the new birth in Christ.

And the New Birth can be broken down into steps...(Note...I'm quoting from the book but I'm substituting the KJV with the NKJV because well...you know...easier to follow...)

Believe and Confess
Romans 10:9,10
"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

John 1:12,13
"But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Acts 3:19
"Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord."

For further biblical support, you can also refer to:
John 3:14-21
John 3:36
Ephesians 2:8-9

The next "step" is the Water of the New BIrth...read this one very carefully...

Chapter 4
The Water of the New BIrth (page 22)
We read that Jesus said "Marvel not that I said unto thee, ye must be born again" (John 3:7). Just before He said that, Jesus said..."Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5)

What is the water of the New Birth? What does this water of the New BIrth mean?

Does it refer to being baptized in water? Does that save you? No, that is not what Jesus is talking about.

The Word of God is the water referred to in John 3:5. Let's prove that by looking through a number of Scriptures.

Ephesians 5:26
"That he might sactify and cleanse it (the church) with the washing of water by the word."

John 6:63
"It is the spirit that quickeneth, the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, they are life."

John 15:3
"Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."

John 17:17
"Sanctify them through they truth: they word is truth"

1 Peter 1:23
"Being born again, not of corruptible see, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth forever."

James 1:18
"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

Wanted to provide you with another intepretation of "water" baptism. I lean toward accepting that we are to be born of WATER AND THE SPIRIT in this sense moreso than I believe that the WATER baptism in a literal sense is necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

And it makes sense. You can't come to Christ without accepting the WORD of God....the "water".

[Buttercup]

Wow Dawny....that booklet is PERFECT. I needed that! I agree with his statements 100%. Good post.

[FFH]

The physical ordinance of baptism, must be accepted, either in this life, or in the next, in order to live with Chirst and the Father.

[FFH]

Spirit Prison is a place that is reserved for those that do not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.

Spirit Paradise is for those that have accepted Christ as their Savior.

Baptism is a necessary ordinance that must be recieved in order to permanently live where Christ and the Father dwell.

[FFH]

Baptism will be offered to those in Spirit Paradise, so that they will be able to live permanently with the Father and the Son in their kingdoms.

Again this is why Latter-day Saints continually do baptisms for the dead in over 100 temples that dot the earth.

[dawny0826]

1. Where does the Bible say that baptism by water is not a requirement for salvation?

"There is also an antitype which now saves us-baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God) through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." 1 Peter 3:21

I wasn't trying to be rude or anything by bolding the above scripture. I just wanted to make sure that you really READ that verse. Because...the verses prior to that speak of Jesus preaching in the prison.

"The removal of the filth of the flesh" points towards water baptism...we're being told in this verse is no longer necessary because NOW...because of Christ's resurection...we can go to God in good conscience...

This baptism refers to spiritual baptism...not water baptism. We no longer need water baptism. Why? Christ Jesus is NOW Spirit. And we can NOW receive the Spirit via spiritual baptism.

Here is further scripture to support that it is by the SPIRITUAL Baptism which results in accepting, believing in and having faith in Christ that we receive...

"For by Grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is a gift of God. not of works lest anyone should boat." Ephesians 2:8-9

Faith in who? Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ saves.

"There is ONE body and one Spirit,just as you were called in one hope of your calling: one Lord, one faith, one baptism; and one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in you all." Ephesians 4:4-6

This is referring to Spirit...not water. Who dwells within us? Christ. How does Christ dwell within you? In Spirit.

"Or did you not know that as many of us were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." Romans 6:3-4

Baptism in these verses refers to baptism in a spiritual sense.

"For you all are sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Galations 3:26-27

This refers to spiritual baptism...not water baptism.

After researching...I have found ONE verse which refers to water baptism as a symbol...but if you're inclined to believe otherwise...you probably will not interpret this verse as such...although most Christians would see it as such.

2. Where does it say that you are baptized by the Holy Spirit when you accept Christ?

When you become a Christian...the Holy Spirit comes upon you. This something that is truly more FELT on a spiritual level than understood on a mental level...

"But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." Romans 8:9

The baptism that I'm referring to occurs WHEN you accept Christ...according the Word of God...without the indwelling you are not Christ's...you are not a Christian.

3. What do you think Jesus meant when He commanded His Apostles to go into the world and baptize those who would accept His gospel?

He meant just as he said. I'm NOT disputing this. But this can VERY WELL refer to the SPIRITUAL baptism as opposed to the Water baptism. You and I can't know this. It's easy to plug in "water" baptism because that's what we do when we become Christians...we undergo "water" baptism...but before that...comes Spiritual baptism...when you accept Christ as your Saviour and receive the indwelling of the Spirit.

[Buttercup]

Let's see if I can post this without it taking 10 minutes. The site seems to be better now. Does anyone else have the problem of slow page loading/ I have complained to Todd and he says he is working on it. I will be getting offline soon however.

Thanks for the explanations FFH. If you and I had debated it would have ended much sooner! I see that spirit prison and spirit paradise are quite different places. This is news to me! Do LDS teachings teach that someone in spirit prison can be saved after death?