Aqualung vs Buttercup (Kingdom, choice, church, sin, bible)

[Squirt]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

It symbolized repentance for sins.

When Christ was living, water baptism cleansed an individual of their sins...why?

Because Christ had yet to die for our sins.

Are you saying that we no longer are required to repent? The fact that He died for our sins in no way implies that reprentence is no longer required of us. Or do you disagree?

The last thing, the very last thing Jesus said to His Apostles before He ascended to His Father was, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

He had previously taught that not one, but two, kinds of baptism were required for salvation: He was quite specific about that when He said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

His followers continued to baptize people by water after He died. They knew Jesus personally. Don't you think they would have understood that water baptism was no longer required of Christ's followers if that was the case?

Besides, when you get right down to it, water baptism never has actually cleansed a person of his sins. Only the Atonement of Christ truly cleanses. I'm sure we agree on that.

Who baptized Christ?

John the Baptist...

And what did John the Baptist say about baptism?

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentence, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Matthew 3:11

While Christ was living, WATER baptism was imperative for the forgiveness...the washing away, if you will, of sins...however, with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ...we are baptised in fire...THE HOLY SPIRIT. It's the blood of Christ that washes our sins clean...not the symbolic water baptism.

The fact remains that Jesus said we must be baptized by both water and the spirit. You are simply ignoring that very clearly stated fact.

Further, John 3:16...the very HEART of Christianity states CLEARLY that it is with BELIEF in Christ Jesus that we are granted eternal life...BELIEF...

When you BELIEVE in Christ...when you ACCEPT Christ's sacrifice...you are THEN washed clean of your sins and receive what?

The Holy Spirit.

Yes, belief in Christ is absolutely essential. But so is obedience to His commandments. Would you like me to post a few scriptures that teach this, or can we agree on that point?

One does not receive the Holy Ghost simply by believing in Christ. It is a gift received by the laying on of hands (see Acts 8:18-19). This takes place after baptism by water.

Jesus Christ Himself tells us...in Mark 16:16...

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved: but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Christ was living at this time. Therefore, at this point in time...water baptism was crucial for the purpose of forgiveness.

And I guess that somewhere along the line He said, "And after I die, you must only believe. Baptism will no longer be required of you." Hmmm, I can't recall ever seeing that taught.

I"m inclined to believe that our interpretation of this verse NOW...since Christ has died for sins and has ascended into Heaven...is that the baptism referred to in this verse refers to the SPIRITUAL baptism and NOT the water baptism.

Yes, I can see that. But several facts remain, and I am not comfortable simply pretending that they dont:

1. Jesus said we must be born of water and the spirit both. How can you get around this?
2. He was baptized himself. Surely it was not for the remission of sins, so it had to be for some other reason. What do you think that reason was?
3. He told his Apostles to continue to baptize those who would accept His gospel in the future. Why do you think he did so?
4. Belief is something that is between a person and God. If all a person had to do to receive the Holy Spirit was to believe in Christ, what do you think Jesus meant when He told His disciples to go into all the world and to baptize those who would accept His gospel?

We're not told in John 3:16 that we must believe inChrist and then be submersed in water for our sins...we're told that belief in Christ guarantees our salvation.

I guess I'm going to have to provide you with a few verses that teach the need for obedience in addition to belief. But it's getting late. I'll do that tomorrow.

And what happens when we believe in Christ? We are baptized in the Holy Spirit...by receiving the indwelling.

Since you believe this so strongly, would you please post a few verses that teach that by believing in Christ, we are automatically baptized in the Holy Spirit, and that this does not require that someone perform the baptism?

Looking forward to your reply and to a good experience for all of us.

Squirt

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

According to the Bible, Christ's Sacrifice atoned for the sins of the world.

Yes, but you said earlier that it was baptism that cleansed people's sins of those born prior to Christ, and this his atonement was only for those who were born after him, and that this is why they didn't need to be baptised.

You aren't save unless you humble yourself before Christ. You can't receive the Holy Spirit unless you seek the Holy Spirit. You have to be sincere. Your heart has to be ready and willing to receive.

But that's what repenting is. Humbling yourself and sincerely asking for forgiveness.

[Squirt]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

My argument is that the WATER baptism does not save you. The SPIRITUAL baptism saves you because the SPIRITUAL baptism occurs when one accepts Jesus Christ.

Baptism does not save anyone. It doesn't matter whether it's baptism by water or by the Spirit. The Atonement of Jesus Christ is what saves you. However, Christ requires something of us, too. He requires that we receive these two kinds of baptism.

If I were to die tomorrow...the fact that I wasn't baptized in water is a non issue because I have already been washed clean of my sins by the blood of Christ.

Where does the Bible state that this is a "non-issue"? It's a commandment! How can a commandment be a "non-issue"?

And now my question...

If water baptism was great enough for salvation? What was the point of Christ's sacrifice, then?

Dawny, neither Aqualung nor I have said that we are saved by being baptized. Honestly, we don't believe that. Never in a million years could any of us be saved by having been baptized or by living a life overflowing with good works. It simply would not be possible. Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but it sounds to me as if you're saying that only one thing is required of us -- belief in Jesus Christ. We don't have to repent of our sins and we don't have to obey His commandments. He said we need to be baptized of water and of the spirit, but we can ignore the water baptism if we wish. Nothing, absolutely nothing is required of us except belief. Why, may I ask, do you even think that faith in Him is necessary? If He died to atone for our sins, why is it necessary for us to even have to believe? A gift is, after all, given freely. Why would He have required us to believe in order to receive this gift? And why, if He did require that much of us, would He not have also required us to repent of our sins and obey His commandments?

[Buttercup]

Originally Posted by Squirt

Baptism does not save anyone. It doesn't matter whether it's baptism by water or by the Spirit. The Atonement of Jesus Christ is what saves you. However, Christ requires something of us, too. He requires that we receive these two kinds of baptism.

But that's not what the Bible says, is it?

Dawny, neither Aqualung nor I have said that we are saved by being baptized. Honestly, we don't believe that. Never in a million years could any of us be saved by having been baptized or by living a life overflowing with good works. It simply would not be possible. Correct me if I'm wrong, please, but it sounds to me as if you're saying that only one thing is required of us -- belief in Jesus Christ. We don't have to repent of our sins and we don't have to obey His commandments. He said we need to be baptized of water and of the spirit, but we can ignore the water baptism if we wish. Nothing, absolutely nothing is required of us except belief. Why, may I ask, do you even think that faith in Him is necessary? If He died to atone for our sins, why is it necessary for us to even have to believe? A gift is, after all, given freely. Why would He have required us to believe in order to receive this gift? And why, if He did require that much of us, would He not have also required us to repent of our sins and obey His commandments?

Of course repentance of our sins, obeying his commandments and belief that Christ is God are what is necessary for salvation. I figured that was a given. I have just been saying all along that you can do ALL that without being baptized with water and be saved. You are baptised by the Holy Spirit when you accept Christ and ask for forgiveness of our sins. The water isn't essential.

[Squirt]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

Another edit:

In Mark 16:16...Christ had already died and was risen.

This doesn't change my argument at all, however. Since Christ was already risen...he had already atoned for our sins...so the baptism referred to, IMO is still the SPIRITUAL baptism and NOT the water baptism.

Dawny, it looks to me as if you've drawn a conclusion based on something other than what the Bible teaches. I know you believe that only those individuals who lived prior to when Jesus died needed to be baptized. I understand that. What I don't understand is why you believe this. Where in the scriptures are we told that once Christ had risen, the commandment to be baptized no longer applied?

I'm also curious about something else? When do you believe the practice of water baptism originated? If you believe that it began with John the Baptist and ended with the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who exactly did it apply to? You don't think it was necessary at all once Christ rose from the dead. If it started with John the Baptist, what was the fate of the millions who died before he began baptizing? It sounds as if you're talking about a period of roughly three years in length. Are you aware that there are over 100 mentions of baptism in the New Testament? How would you explain that much emphasis on a practice that is a "non-issue" for 99.9% of all people who have ever lived or will live?

[dawny0826]

Are you saying that we no longer are required to repent?

Absolutely NOT. I'm saying that WATER baptism does not save us nor does it atone for our shortcoming. ONLY CHRIST JESUS can do that.

The fact that He died for our sins in no way implies that reprentence is no longer required of us. Or do you disagree?

Christians MUST repent for their sins. I'm not saying that we aren't at all.

The last thing, the very last thing Jesus said to His Apostles before He ascended to His Father was, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Yes. I've never discounted the importance of water baptism (if this verse is even referring solely to water baptism)...my argument is that WATER baptism does not save a person.

He had previously taught that not one, but two, kinds of baptism were required for salvation: He was quite specific about that when He said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

Yes. And I'm not disputing that we should undergo water baptism. Christ tells us that we should.

I'm stil firm in stating that WATER baptism does not save your soul.

In the VERY SAME Chapter of the book of John...Jesus Christ states this...

John 3:16...

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in HIM should not perish but have everlasting life."

John 3:17

"For God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved."

John 3:18

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed int he name of the only begotten Son of God."

Christ saves. Water does not. Water baptism is important but these verses in the very same chapter answers a question that many ask...

What of people who accept Christ but die before they can be baptised in water? When you accept Christ...you've already received the SPIRITUAL baptism, or else you wouldn't be a Christian. According to the Bible...that's sufficient...your belief in Christ...your personal walk with Christ is sufficient. Why? Because CHRIST saved you. HIS BLOOD saved you. NOT water.

His followers continued to baptize people by water after He died. They knew Jesus personally. Don't you think they would have understood that water baptism was no longer required of Christ's followers if that was the case?

Again, Christ told us to baptize. I'm NOT debating that water baptism is important. I'm being baptized AGAIN this Spring because I KNOW it's what Christ wants me to do. However, the water baptism doesn't wash me clean of my sins...it symbolizes my rebirth. Christ Jesus has already forgiven me of my sins because I humbled myself before Him and asked Him to forgive me and to come into my life...to take the wheel in my life. And I FELT the Holy Spirit when I received the indwelling come upon me and have felt the rebirth first hand. I KNOW I'm saved. By the BLOOD of CHRIST.

Besides, when you get right down to it, water baptism never has actually cleansed a person of his sins. Only the Atonement of Christ truly cleanses. I'm sure we agree on that.

Yes...we can agree on this.

The fact remains that Jesus said we must be baptized by both water and the spirit. You are simply ignoring that very clearly stated fact.

No.

But if one were to pass on before receiving the water baptism...I know in my heart and hearts...that according to the WORD of my FATHER...when that person accepted Christ Jesus as their Personal Saviour, they WERE cleansed of their sins. And I believe whole heartedly that if their intent was to be baptized in water...they WOULD be accepted in the kingdom of heaven.

One can be water baptized but not have Christ in their hearts.

If one has received the Holy Spirit...there's not doubt...they've been saved by Christ.

Yes, belief in Christ is absolutely essential. But so is obedience to His commandments. Would you like me to post a few scriptures that teach this, or can we agree on that point?

Yes...but you're focusing one ONE point. I'm NOT discounting the importance of water baptism...I'm trying to illustrate to you that water baptism is NOT the ticket to eternal life.

One does not receive the Holy Ghost simply by believing in Christ. It is a gift received by the laying on of hands (see Acts 8:18-19). This takes place after baptism by water.

Wrong. I have very much received the Holy Spirit and I have yet to be baptized in water. I had hands laid on me and I spoke in tongues, as the bible states. You recieve the Holy Ghost when you open your heart to receive. When you lay your life down and ask the Lord Jesus Christ to forgive you and to come into you life and to change you...to mold you to suit HIS will not your own. This is the spiritual baptism. The water baptism can come after.

And I guess that somewhere along the line He said, "And after I die, you must only believe. Baptism will no longer be required of you." Hmmm, I can't recall ever seeing that taught.

I didn't say that. I've reiterated over and over that I feel the water baptism is important.

You can't receive Christ without belief in Christ. That was my point.

Yes, I can see that. But several facts remain, and I am not comfortable simply pretending that they dont:

1. Jesus said we must be born of water and the spirit both. How can you get around this?

I'm not trying to. I'm stating to you that WATER doesn't save you. CHRIST saves you. I'm stating that if I die tomorrow...I know where I'm going and can say so confidently because I've accepted Christ into my life...I have CHRIST in my heart.

2. He was baptized himself. Surely it was not for the remission of sins, so it had to be for some other reason. What do you think that reason was?

To show US how we should live. I'm not discounting the importance of the water baptism.

3. He told his Apostles to continue to baptize those who would accept His gospel in the future. Why do you think he did so?

See my answer to #2.

4. Belief is something that is between a person and God. If all a person had to do to receive the Holy Spirit was to believe in Christ, what do you think Jesus meant when He told His disciples to go into all the world and to baptize those who would accept His gospel?

Not a soul would be baptized unless they FIRST accepted CHRIST Jesus. And upon doing so...what happens? You receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Again...I'm not discounting water baptism but what is the greater of the two? THE SPIRITUAL baptism. Without it...you're NOT a Christian...period.

I guess I'm going to have to provide you with a few verses that teach the need for obedience in addition to belief. But it's getting late. I'll do that tomorrow.

Okey dokey.

Since you believe this so strongly, would you please post a few verses that teach that by believing in Christ, we are automatically baptized in the Holy Spirit, and that this does not require that someone perform the baptism?

I NEVER said that we didn't NEED to be baptized. And as a Christian...you should understand the concept of receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit...it happens the moment of rebirth.

I'll still quote scripture for you. I'll focus on the rebirth...which in my opinion...is the most important aspect of becoming a Christian...without it...without that internal change from within...one probably hasn't received the Holy Spirit.

Looking forward to your reply and to a good experience for all of us.

I agree. Looking forward to your replies as well.

[Squirt]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Of course repentance of our sins, obeying his commandments and belief that Christ is God are what is necessary for salvation. I figured that was a given. I have just been saying all along that you can do ALL that without being baptized with water and be saved. You are baptised by the Holy Spirit when you accept Christ and ask for forgiveness of our sins. The water isn't essential.

Yes, I know this is what you've been saying all along. Now could we move on to where the Bible also says this?

1. Where does the Bible say that baptism by water is not a requirement for salvation?
2. Where does it say that you are baptized by the Holy Spirit when you accept Christ?
3. What do you think Jesus meant when He commanded His Apostles to go into the world and baptize those who would accept His gospel?