Aqualung vs Buttercup (Kingdom, choice, church, sin, bible)

[Squirt]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

I'm going to start by asking you two a question...(which I do know the answer to)

What WAS the purpose of baptism while Jesus was living?

Baptism served the same purpose while Jesus was living as it serves today. Why would it be any different? Throughout the New Testament, baptism is consistently tied to repentence. The following four examples are fairly representative of this important connection:

Mark 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luke 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Acts 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

Once a person has repented of his or her sins, the next step is to enter into a covenant relationship with Jesus Christ. This is done (as was the case anciently) by being "born of water." Baptism is the means by which we do this. It was a commandment taught by Christ's Apostles and an ordinance that was important enough that Jesus, who had no need of repentence, requested of John for one simple, straightforward purpose: to fulfill all righteousness. He knew His Father expected it of Him and He complied.

What do you think the purpose of baptism was while Jesus was living?

(By the way, what are we actually debating? The title of this thread tells us nothing, and Buttercup's first post was about the Spirit Prison. Now, here we are discussing baptism.)

[dawny0826]

What do you think the purpose of baptism was while Jesus was living?

It symbolized repentance for sins.

When Christ was living, water baptism cleansed an individual of their sins...why?

Because Christ had yet to die for our sins.

Who baptized Christ?

John the Baptist...

And what did John the Baptist say about baptism?

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentence, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Matthew 3:11

While Christ was living, WATER baptism was imperative for the forgiveness...the washing away, if you will, of sins...however, with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ...we are baptised in fire...THE HOLY SPIRIT. It's the blood of Christ that washes our sins clean...not the symbolic water baptism.

Further, John 3:16...the very HEART of Christianity states CLEARLY that it is with BELIEF in Christ Jesus that we are granted eternal life...BELIEF...

When you BELIEVE in Christ...when you ACCEPT Christ's sacrifice...you are THEN washed clean of your sins and receive what?

The Holy Spirit.

John the Baptist says again...

"I indeed baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." Mark 1:8

Jesus Christ Himself tells us...in Mark 16:16...

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved: but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Christ was living at this time. Therefore, at this point in time...water baptism was crucial for the purpose of forgiveness.

I"m inclined to believe that our interpretation of this verse NOW...since Christ has died for sins and has ascended into Heaven...is that the baptism referred to in this verse refers to the SPIRITUAL baptism and NOT the water baptism.

We're not told in John 3:16 that we must believe inChrist and then be submersed in water for our sins...we're told that belief in Christ guarantees our salvation. And what happens when we believe in Christ?

We are baptized in the Holy Spirit...by receiving the indwelling.

[dawny0826]

Edit: The third to the last paragraph should read..."should be that the baptism referred..."

[nutshell]

But the one doesn't mean the other is not necessary...

oops...this is one-on-one...aqua...take it away.

[dawny0826]

Another edit:

In Mark 16:16...Christ had already died and was risen.

This doesn't change my argument at all, however. Since Christ was already risen...he had already atoned for our sins...so the baptism referred to, IMO is still the SPIRITUAL baptism and NOT the water baptism.

[dawny0826]

Another question for you...after you rebuttal what I've already posted.

For the record, I don't discount the importance of water baptism. I myself am going to be baptized AGAIN this spring in the James River because I rededicated my life to Christ and feel it's important to do so.

My argument is that the WATER baptism does not save you. The SPIRITUAL baptism saves you because the SPIRITUAL baptism occurs when one accepts Jesus Christ.

If I were to die tomorrow...the fact that I wasn't baptized in water is a non issue because I have already been washed clean of my sins by the blood of Christ.

And now my question...

If water baptism was great enough for salvation? What was the point of Christ's sacrifice, then?

[Aqualung]

It symbolized repentance for sins.

It doesn't symbolise repentacne. You are not baptised for a symol of the repentence of sins. YOu are baptised for a rependence of sins.

While Christ was living, WATER baptism was imperative for the forgiveness...the washing away, if you will, of sins...however, with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ...we are baptised in fire...THE HOLY SPIRIT. It's the blood of Christ that washes our sins clean...not the symbolic water baptism.

So Christ died for the sins of mankind, he was actually dying for the sins of mankind, if they happened to be born after he died?

[dawny0826]

It doesn't symbolise repentacne. You are not baptised for a symol of the repentence of sins. YOu are baptised for a rependence of sins.

While Christ was living, you're right...they were baptized FOR the forgiveness of sins.

But NOW...that we have the gift of the Holy Spirit when we accept Christ...you are not baptized in WATER FOR the forgiveness of sins. You are baptized by HIs SPIRIT FOR the forgiveness of sins. You are forgiven the moment you ASK for forgiveness. The water symbolizes your sins being washed away but those sins were already washed clean by HIS blood when He died for you. You have to RECEIVE it.

So Christ died for the sins of mankind, he was actually dying for the sins of mankind, if they happened to be born after he died?

I'm not sure if I'm understanding your question correctly...so correct me I'm not...

Christ atoned for the sins of the world. When I accepted Christ...every sin I had ever commited was instantly forgiven. He already shed His precious blood for my sins...I had to ACKOWLEDGE that sacrifice and accept His forgiveness and His will in my life.

As a born again Christian...I am responsble for repenting for any sin I commit. When I seek forgiveness...it is granted.

My water baptism will symbolize my rebirth...symbolize the washing away of my sins. But those sins were washed away by BLOOD and FIRE...not WATER.