Aqualung vs Buttercup (Kingdom, choice, church, sin, bible)

[Buttercup]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

We cannot conclude that at all. You're making horribly huge jumps of conclusion.

And you're not by saying HE WAS baptized? Are you not jumping to conclusions by saying he was? There is more evidence from these sentences to substantiate my point than yours.

I can see that we are not going to agree on this subject even if we went on for 20 pages.

I believe, and most of Christsendom believes, that baptism is a good thing and advisable but it is not ESSENTIAL for salvation. Belief in Christ as God and following him saves you, not the water. Water has no power. Christ does. You belittle the power of Christ to say that water matters. Only a sincere belief in Christ matters in the end.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

And you're not by saying HE WAS baptized? Are you not jumping to conclusions by saying he was? There is more evidence from these sentences to substantiate my point than yours.

No, I am not saying that he was. I'm just saying we cannot conclusively say that he wasn't. Of course, my doctrine doesn't rest on him being baptised. But yours does rest on him not being baptised. I'm just saying it's a little hasty to base your entire doctrine (since you refused to say how your doctrine accounted for the billions of questions I posted) when we don't even know he wasn't baptised.

I can see that we are not going to agree on this subject even if we went on for 20 pages.

Well, if you're going to quit, the least you could do is actually answer the questions I've asked you. It would be very disrespectful not to.

I believe, and most of Christsendom believes, that baptism is a good thing and advisable but it is not ESSENTIAL for salvation.

I know that, but you have yet to show me why you believe that (except for a doctrine based on a huge conclusion) and why you can believe that in spite of the numerous things I have showed you.

[Buttercup]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

:banhead3 ARGH!! I just typed up a huge long response and it got lost!!!! Okay, I'll have to answer you later. I'm too mad now.

I can totally relate and this is one of my pet peeves about the computer.

And what question have I not answered to your satisfaction?

I have to get some work done. I'll be back!

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

I can totally relate and this is one of my pet peeves about the computer.

And what question have I not answered to your satisfaction?

I have to get some work done. I'll be back!

The unanswered questions:

Why would Christ go to preach to the spirits in prison as mentioned in 1 Pet 3:19 and 1 Pet 4:6 if salvation were not possible after death?

Why do you think Christ himself would waste his time with an unnecessary expression of his faithfulness? After all, he already knew he would later have to show his faithfulness by enduring crucifixtion. Why this extra "baptism" thing if it weren't necessary?

What am I to make of Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, and 1 Pet 3:21?

What happens to all the people who are either born before Christ or are born in places where the name of Christ is unknown? If all non-believers are cast into hell (because there is no salvation after death and because unbelief is the only unpardonable sin), are all those guys just out of luck? Do they just coincidentally have to suffer in hell for all eternity?

When Christ told the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise" how could this have mean heaven as you take it to mean if a) 1 Pet 3:19 states Christ did not go to heaven but rather went to preach to the spirits in prison and b) in John 20:17 he tells somebody that he has not yet ascended to his father (he has not yet gone to heaven)?

What do you make of 2 Cor 12:2? This seems to show that it is a little more complicated than just heaven and hell.

What is the purpose of the Final judgement? Does God just let "probably clean" people into his kingdom when no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of heaven? Why two judgements if you're just ending up in the same place anyway?

How do you know the thief wasn't baptised before he became a thief?

What is the scriptural basis for saying that salvation comes at the moment you accept christ into your heart?

[Buttercup]

Wow, I thought we were supposed to stay on topic? I just warned you about that. Almost all the questions you ask above are not about baptism. All that I wanted to talk about in this debate was baptism being necessary for salvation. I have covered that. Unless you want to get into a battle of scriptures.

As I have said....you and I will have many differences in beliefs. This is part of the reason why the LDS and most other Christian churches have conflicts. We don't believe you can be saved after you die....you do.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Wow, I thought we were supposed to stay on topic? I just warned you about that. Almost all the questions you ask above are not about baptism. All that I wanted to talk about in this debate was baptism being necessary for salvation. I have covered that. Unless you want to get into a battle of scriptures.

As I have said....you and I will have many differences in beliefs. This is part of the reason why the LDS and most other Christian churches have conflicts. We don't believe you can be saved after you die....you do.

Okay, I'll tell you why they have to do with the topic at hand.

[Aqualung]

What the unanswered questions have to do with baptism:

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Why would Christ go to preach to the spirits in prison as mentioned in 1 Pet 3:19 and 1 Pet 4:6 if salvation were not possible after death?

You brought up that you thought it was stupid to require baptism for salvation because some people will happen to die right before they get baptised. I said people could get baptised after death. You said people couldn't be saved after death. I brought up these quotes and you failed to asnwer.

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Why do you think Christ himself would waste his time with an unnecessary expression of his faithfulness? After all, he already knew he would later have to show his faithfulness by enduring crucifixtion. Why this extra "baptism" thing if it weren't necessary?

This is very on topic. If baptism is not necessary, why did Christ get baptised? Why would he waste his time with an unnecessary thing?

Originally Posted by Aqualung

What am I to make of Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 2:38, Acts 10:48, and 1 Pet 3:21?

All these quotes state that baptism is necessary (excpet the peter quote, which states that people can be saved after they die).

What happens to all the people who are either born before Christ or are born in places where the name of Christ is unknown? If all non-believers are cast into hell (because there is no salvation after death and because unbelief is the only unpardonable sin), are all those guys just out of luck? Do they just coincidentally have to suffer in hell for all eternity?

This is directly related to the proposition that all you need for salvation is to believe in christ, and that those who do not believe will be cast into hell, and that there is no salvation after death.

Originally Posted by Aqulaung

When Christ told the thief "Today you will be with me in paradise" how could this have mean heaven as you take it to mean if a) 1 Pet 3:19 states Christ did not go to heaven but rather went to preach to the spirits in prison and b) in John 20:17 he tells somebody that he has not yet ascended to his father (he has not yet gone to heaven)?

This is in argument to your thief story. You stated it was obvious that one does not need baptism because the thief "got saved". I brought up those scriptural references up to show that Jesus did not go to Heaven, and that therefore the thief, who went where Jesus went (today you shall be with me...), was not saved baptism-free.

Originally Posted by Aqualung

What do you make of 2 Cor 12:2? This seems to show that it is a little more complicated than just heaven and hell.

This has more to do with your proposition that one cannot be saved after death.

Originally Posted by Aqualung

What is the purpose of the Final judgement? Does God just let "probably clean" people into his kingdom when no unclean thing can enter into the kingdom of heaven? Why two judgements if you're just ending up in the same place anyway?

Same as above.

Originally Posted by Aqualung

How do you know the thief wasn't baptised before he became a thief?

This is challenging your belief that a non-baptised man "got saved".

Originally Posted by Aqualung

What is the scriptural basis for saying that salvation comes at the moment you accept christ into your heart?

I have produced many biblical quotes that state you need baptism for salvation, and you have yet to propose one that states that you are saved the moment you accept Christ into your life.

All but like 2 of those were not DIRECTLY related to the question of baptism, and the others were related to a couple of arguments you gave in support of your theory that baptism is not necessary.

Start talkin'.