Aqualung vs Buttercup (Kingdom, choice, church, sin, bible)

[Buttercup]

Ok, I'm back for a little while anyway. This may continue for several days you know? Oh well, it's fun!

I need to ask you something in the interim.....Can you tell me where you go IF you've been baptized before you die?

[Aqualung]

The spirit world. Everybody goes to the spirit world after they die.

[Buttercup]

AQUA: Do you actually know the theif wasn't baptised? You're making quite the assumption by saying that an unbaptised man went to "heaven".

Come on girl! You do realize how silly this sounds right? Who would baptize the thief? He would have remained on the cross until death. Christ did not say ...."Hold on let me get some water and then you'll be saved !" He simply said,......"today you will be with me in paradise." Which to most people means heaven. It shows that your belief alone and not the water is what saves you. And I might add by the way that you have not come up with a definition of paradise meaning anything other than heaven.

Here is a great verse that further shows that you do not need to be baptised to be saved. This is Paul speaking:

1Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel....not with words of human wisdom lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

It is the gospel of Christ and belief in and devotion to Christ that saves you. Not water. You basicallly are trying to empy Christ of HIS POWER by saying that mere water is part of the salvation process. Belief in Christ alone saves. The water does not.

Now, I would still like to see some scripture talking about this 'spirit prison' that you claim people go to who accept Christ as Savior but have not been baptized. So, are you saying they ARE or ARE NOT saved? There is something else they have to do simply because they were not immersed in water on earth?

And....you say that people go to the spirit world after death. Is that the same thing to you as spirit prison?

I will be out of town for the rest of the day. We'll keep it going though right?

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Come on girl! You do realize how silly this sounds right? Who would baptize the thief?

Why? How many people who are in prison now do you think have been baptised? Christ ate with the tax collectors, because they were more humble. Why is it so hard to think that somebody who got baptised later committed a sin? I know I have sinned since I got baptised!

He would have remained on the cross until death.

Oh, I think I understand what you're saying. I'm saying he got baptised before he was on the cross.

Christ did not say ...."Hold on let me get some water and then you'll be saved !" He simply said,......"today you will be with me in paradise." Which to most people means heaven.

But how could it have been heaven? Three days later he had yet to ascend to his father in heaven. Christ did not go to heaven. Neither did the theif. He went to preach to the spirits in prison, as Paul says, and he had not yet been to heaven, as christ himself says.

It shows that your belief alone and not the water is what saves you. And I might add by the way that you have not come up with a definition of paradise meaning anything other than heaven.

That's probably because dictionaries aren't very good sources for doctrinal questions.

1Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel....not with words of human wisdom lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

It is the gospel of Christ and belief in and devotion to Christ that saves you. Not water. You basicallly are trying to empy Christ of HIS POWER by saying that mere water is part of the salvation process. Belief in Christ alone saves. The water does not.

How do you read that? It's like saying, "I am not here to teach you math, but to teach you spanish." That in no way means math is not important. But there's a certain division of labour between people. Paul was exceptionally good at preaching, so why should he do the baptising, too, when there are others to do it as well?

Did you read the previous verses? Paul baptised a guy in the name of Christ.

Now, I would still like to see some scripture talking about this 'spirit prison' that you claim people go to who accept Christ as Savior but have not been baptized. So, are you saying they ARE or ARE NOT saved? There is something else they have to do simply because they were not immersed in water on earth?

Neither. They are not saved or not not saved. True salvation does not come until the final judgement. The FINAL judgement. That's right. There's more than one judgement. I still want to know what you make of that.

And....you say that people go to the spirit world after death. Is that the same thing to you as spirit prison?

Well, for the sake of simplicity, pretty much. There's no physical difference. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

I will be out of town for the rest of the day. We'll keep it going though right?

Okay. Have a fun time wherever you are.

[Aqualung]

Some stuff about paradise:
Did Christ and the thief go to Paradise on that day? In order to answer the question, we need to be reminded that some Jews believed in the resurrection of the dead (Acts 23:6, 8). If a Pharisee were asked how the dead are raised (the very question that arose later in Corinth, cf. 1 Cor. 15:35), he would have said that, when righteous people die, they go to a special place where they await their resurrection. This place is called by various names. One name is "Paradise." Another is "the Bosom of Abraham."

Jewish tradition acknowledged all the elements used in Christ's parable. The poor man was carried by the angels to the Bosom of Abraham (cf. Luke 16:22 and Ketubot 104a). The Bosom of Abraham is mentioned in the writings of the intertestamental period (4 Maccabees 13:17) and in Qiddusin 72b. Most important, Abraham is "designated as he who receives...the penitent into Paradise" (Alfred Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, II, p. 280; see also `Erubin 19a).

In Christ's parable of Lazarus and the rich man, it was Lazarus who found himself in the special place (the Bosom of Abraham). To say that a dead person was in that place was the same as saying that he was righteous, because only the righteous went to Paradise to wait with Abraham.

[Buttercup]

Oh, I think I understand what you're saying. I'm saying he got baptised before he was on the cross.

Aqua, I have to say that you are losing with this example of the thief on the cross. None of your rebuttals regarding this scripture I quote have shown me evidence of him being baptized. If you read the scripture previous to Luke 23: 42 you will understand that Jesus and the criminal do not get to know each other until they are hanging on the cross side by side. The thief could not have been baptised before that day.

Here's the scene.....There are two criminals along with Jesus being crucified that day. One believes him to be God (vs. 40), the other does not and rebukes Christ. The thief says, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." There is no time to baptize the thief, nor would anyone knowing Jesus be allowed to baptize the thief. AND, Jesus does not say to the thief, "Now you must be baptized for your salvation to go into effect." No, he tells him he will be with him later that day......in paradise. The thief does not need to do one more thing to be saved. He believed in Christ as God and that was enough.

Did you read the previous verses? Paul baptised a guy in the name of Christ.

Yes, I did read it. And I choose to not take it out of context. Baptism is a good thing. I have never said it wasn't. But, it is not ESSENTIAL for salvation. Why would Paul say:

For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel....not with words of human wisdom lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Notice the highlighted words....THAT is what's crucial, not baptism. It is very clear to me!

True salvation does not come until the final judgement. The FINAL judgement. That's right. There's more than one judgement. I still want to know what you make of that.

I'm sorry, but this is flat out wrong Christian doctrine. Salvation comes the MOMENT you believe Christ to be Lord and Saviour. The final judgement is for the entire world to determine our earthly works and for those non believers to receive their sentence so to speak. We will have already made our decision for Christ or against him WHILE WE WERE ALIVE. You cannot be saved after you die. It's here on earth or nowhere! You are wrong here. I am very adamant about that. You CANNOT be saved after you die.

In Christ's parable of Lazarus and the rich man, it was Lazarus who found himself in the special place (the Bosom of Abraham). To say that a dead person was in that place was the same as saying that he was righteous, because only the righteous went to Paradise to wait with Abraham.

Righteous=Saved. This is your quote remember! There are many words to describe the wonderful place where Jesus is....Paradise, Heaven, Abraham's Bosom, etc. Just as there are many words to describe a car. Auto, Car, Wheels,. When Jesus tells the thief he will be in Paradise that day....what Jesus means is that he will be with HIm. Don't you see that anywhere with Christ is Heaven? And I have never in my life thought of it as a place that you go to be baptised or to continue proving, proving, proving that you love God. The place to prove it is HERE, NOW.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Aqua, I have to say that you are losing with this example of the thief on the cross. None of your rebuttals regarding this scripture I quote have shown me evidence of him being baptized.

I'm not saying he did get baptised. i'm just saying it's a little hasty of you to say that he didn't get baptised. After all, you haven't shown any scripture showing me that he has.

If you read the scripture previous to Luke 23: 42 you will understand that Jesus and the criminal do not get to know each other until they are hanging on the cross side by side. The thief could not have been baptised before that day.

Why is that? Is Jesus the only one who baptises people? IN fact, I can't think of one instance of Jesus baptising anybody. However, in Matthew 3:5 it says "Then went out to him [John the Baptist] Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan." Who's to say the theif wasn't one of those people who was baptised by John?

Here's the scene.....There are two criminals along with Jesus being crucified that day. One believes him to be God (vs. 40), the other does not and rebukes Christ. The thief says, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." There is no time to baptize the thief, nor would anyone knowing Jesus be allowed to baptize the thief. AND, Jesus does not say to the thief, "Now you must be baptized for your salvation to go into effect." No, he tells him he will be with him later that day......in paradise. The thief does not need to do one more thing to be saved. He believed in Christ as God and that was enough.

The theif wasn't saved! Paradise is not heaven!!! Remember the passage I keep quoting to you, about how after Jesus's resurection (that is, after the theif had been with Jesus in paradise) that Jesus says that he has not yet ascended to his father? You continue to ignore that passage. That passage is proof that paradise is not the same thing as heaven, and that therefore the theif was not "saved" because he didn't go to heaven.

Notice the highlighted words....THAT is what's crucial, not baptism. It is very clear to me!

That was what was crucial for Paul to be doing, yes. John, on the other hand, was sent to baptise people and thereby pave the way for Christ. For him, baptism was crucial, not preaching the gospel.

I'm sorry, but this is flat out wrong Christian doctrine. Salvation comes the MOMENT you believe Christ to be Lord and Saviour.

Oh? Could you give the scriptural reference that states that at the moment of belief one is now automatically saved?

The final judgement is for the entire world to determine our earthly works and for those non believers to receive their sentence so to speak. We will have already made our decision for Christ or against him WHILE WE WERE ALIVE. You cannot be saved after you die. It's here on earth or nowhere! You are wrong here. I am very adamant about that. You CANNOT be saved after you die.

Then why in heaven's name did Christ waste all that time going to preach to the spirits in prison, as Peter mention in 1 Pet 3:19, when there was no hope for them to be saved anyway? Does christ seem like the kind of person who would a) waste his time or b) would be mislead about when salvation takes place?

Righteous=Saved.

This is your quote remember!

That's right, but that's not to say that the righteous get saved immediately after they die.

When Jesus tells the thief he will be in Paradise that day....what Jesus means is that he will be with HIm. Don't you see that anywhere with Christ is Heaven?

Really? Was the theif in heaven when he was on the cross with Christ?

And I have never in my life thought of it as a place that you go to be baptised or to continue proving, proving, proving that you love God. The place to prove it is HERE, NOW.

Well, good, maybe this will show you that you're thinking is wrong. I am trying to prove it, but you continue to ignore certain key scriptures (1 Pet 3:19, John 20:17, John 3:6, etc.).