Aqualung vs Buttercup (Kingdom, choice, church, sin, bible)

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Are you saying that you'd better be near some water when you accept Christ into your life because if you die on the way home without being baptised you go to 'spirit prison'? Show me scripture to back it up because I don't have any about a 'spirit prison'. It's not taught in basic Protestant churches. It's up to you to show me.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Christ says over and over again, that unless one is baptised they cannot be saved. There are no ifs, ands, or buts in that. If you are not baptised, you cannot be saved.

What do you do in this spirit prison to 'prove' to Christ that you love him? Why would taking a shower prove it? You've already given your heart to him while alive.

You'd pretty much do the same stuff you do here. You'd have to live your life in a way that proved you loved him.

If "taking a shower" really weren't so important, why did Christ have to do it? Why did he say over and over again that unless you are baptised, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven? Why? That's pretty much the one question I want you to answer. Was Christ lying when he said that?

Water baptism is symbolic for the washing away of sin that happens once you accept Christ as God and Saviour. It is an advisable ceremony but your salvation does not depend on it.

Then why does christ say your salvation does depend on it? Unless you are born of the water and of the spirit you cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. That seems pretty cut and dry. You're really going to have to do some explaining about how this verse can be taken to mean that your salvation actually doesn't depend on baptism.

[Buttercup]

Aqua: Yes, that's what I'm saying. Christ says over and over again, that unless one is baptised they cannot be saved. There are no ifs, ands, or buts in that. If you are not baptised, you cannot be saved.

Consider the thief on the cross (Luke 23:39-43). He said to Jesus, "Remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" In response Jesus didn't say, "Get baptized!" but rather (v. 43), "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise."

You have said before that Jesus makes NO EXCEPTIONS. What about this? It furthers my point that the act of salvation is dependent on giving your heart & mind to Christ. Not the water baptism itself. Remember how I keep asking, what happens if you die before you can get baptised? The verse above gives you the answer. The thief was not baptised before he died, yet Christ tells him he will be with him in heaven.

Aqua: You'd pretty much do the same stuff you do here. You'd have to live your life in a way that proved you loved him.

So you are saying that you have to keep proving to Christ that you love him even after you die?

I asked several times for you to show me scripture about this 'spirit prison'. I genuinely want to know more. I assume it's something like purgatory but I am not familiar with LDS teachings except in a broad sense. And I have not read anything on the forum about spirit prison so I missed the debate you refer to in an early post up above. Explain to me where you come up with the notion that if you die without being baptised you go somewhere other than straight to heaven.

The water of a baptismal ceremony does not save you. It is a public announcement of your devotion to Christ and the symbolic washing away of your sins. The early apostles performed baptisms to reiterate this point. As I said before, it is advisable but not necessary. The thief on the cross is a good example.

What salvation means is your belief in, and devotion to Christ. You''ve given yourself to him.

"Jesus answered "Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh but that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:5-6"

Jesus also says, "In Acts 1:5...

"...for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

John the Baptist who baptized Jesus Christ says this...

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentence, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." Matthew 3:11

Baptism is a good idea. It does not save you however. Your beliefs do.

[Aqualung]

Consider the thief on the cross (Luke 23:39-43). He said to Jesus, "Remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" In response Jesus didn't say, "Get baptized!" but rather (v. 43), "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise."

Yes, but paradise is just another name for the spirit prison. It's a specific place in the spirit prison for those who have been good during this life. How do I know that "paradise" is just another word for the spirit world? Well, where did Jesus go when he died? As 1 Peter 3:19 states, he "preached unto the spirits in prison." Remember, he said today you will be with me in paradise, not today you will be with me in my father's kingdom.

So you are saying that you have to keep proving to Christ that you love him even after you die?

Yep. After all, our eternal spirits don't just stop existing after death.

Explain to me where you come up with the notion that if you die without being baptised you go somewhere other than straight to heaven.

I'm trying. I'm trying to show you that you need to be baptised to be saved. IT's mandatory. I'm also trying to show you that the spirit prison is a place that actually exists.

[Aqualung]

The water of a baptismal ceremony does not save you. It is a public announcement of your devotion to Christ and the symbolic washing away of your sins.

Then why on earth did Christ repetedly say that baptism was necessary? Look at all these times that Christ or his desciples or apostles said that baptism is essential.

What salvation means is your belief in, and devotion to Christ. You''ve given yourself to him.

Salvation means just what it says - salvation. You're getting saved from something. From what? Eternal death.

Jesus also says, "In Acts 1:5...

"...for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Who was he talking to? Those who had already been baptised with water. AFter all, in John 3:5 it says unless you are born of the water and of the spirit... So they were being born of the spirit.

[Buttercup]

Aqua: Yes, but paradise is just another name for the spirit prison. It's a specific place in the spirit prison for those who have been good during this life. How do I know that "paradise" is just another word for the spirit world? Well, where did Jesus go when he died? As 1 Peter 3:19 states, he "preached unto the spirits in prison." Remember, he said today you will be with me in paradise, not today you will be with me in my father's kingdom.

I just simply don't agree with this statement. In mainstream Protestant faiths we believe there is Heaven or Hell. Nothing inbetween. We don't ascribe to a belief in a 'spirit prison'. When Jesus states ""Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise", ....I am taking it that he means heaven literally. Definition of paradise:

# noun: (Christianity) the abode of righteous souls after death
# noun: any place of complete bliss and delight and peace
Or:
1 a place or condition of great happiness where everything is exactly as you would like it to be.

Aqua: Yep. After all, our eternal spirits don't just stop existing after death.

No, they do live on. But we have proven our love & devotion for Christ WHILE ALIVE. We don't have to keep on proving that after we die. Sure we will still love him and serve him in heaven but we will have chosen him while down here on earth. If it wasn't cruicial for us to prove our love for Jesus while we are alive, why were we born for in the first place if we could be saved after death?

I checked the links you provided but many of the scripture must be from the Book Of Mormon. I don't believe the book of Mormon to be a holy book so I can't use much from those links.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

I just simply don't agree with this statement. In mainstream Protestant faiths we believe there is Heaven or Hell. Nothing inbetween. We don't ascribe to a belief in a 'spirit prison'. When Jesus states ""Truly I say to you, today you shall be with me in Paradise", ....I am taking it that he means heaven literally. Definition of paradise:

But how can he mean heaven literally? John 20:17, which takes place after Jesus's resurection, has him expressly saying, "I have not yet ascended to my father." Paradise, which would more correctly be translated "world of spirits" is not heaven.

# noun: (Christianity) the abode of righteous souls after death
# noun: any place of complete bliss and delight and peace
Or:
1 a place or condition of great happiness where everything is exactly as you would like it to be.

You know, for some reason, it just doesn't hold much weight when people try to define their doctrine with the dictionary instead of scripture...

No, they do live on. But we have proven our love & devotion for Christ WHILE ALIVE.

Yes, indeed, but what about those who will never hear of christ WHILE ALIVE? What about those who only live a few years? Do they have an unfair handicap?

We don't have to keep on proving that after we die.

So after we die, we can turn ourselves over to the devil and Christ wouldn't care?

Sure we will still love him and serve him in heaven but we will have chosen him while down here on earth. If it wasn't cruicial for us to prove our love for Jesus while we are alive, why were we born for in the first place if we could be saved after death?

If it were crucial, why do some people get unfair advantage of an 80 year life born to christian parents, rather than a 10 year life in china?

I checked the links you provided but many of the scripture must be from the Book Of Mormon. I don't believe the book of Mormon to be a holy book so I can't use much from those links.

Yeah, I know. Just don't read the BoM quotes. It doesn't make the rest of the quotes any less applicable, though. What did you think of the Bible quotes?

[Buttercup]

But how can he mean heaven literally? John 20:17, which takes place after Jesus's resurection, has him expressly saying, "I have not yet ascended to my father." Paradise, which would more correctly be translated "world of spirits" is not heaven.

Show me where you find the translation of Paradise as meaning "world of spirits".

You know, for some reason, it just doesn't hold much weight when people try to define their doctrine with the dictionary instead of scripture...

I'm not using the dictionary to define doctrine. I'm using it to define the word paradise. How else can we agree on what that word means? I think it means Heaven. You think it means 'spirit prison' or 'world of spirits'. Why would a thief on a cross want to go to a place called spirit prison? Jesus meant heaven to live with him.

So after we die, we can turn ourselves over to the devil and Christ wouldn't care

This statement may just end the debate for me. Are you saying that we are still influenced by the devil after we die?

If it were crucial, why do some people get unfair advantage of an 80 year life born to christian parents, rather than a 10 year life in china?

This makes no sense to me. Please explain.

Yeah, I know. Just don't read the BoM quotes. It doesn't make the rest of the quotes any less applicable, though. What did you think of the Bible quotes?

If you want to have a battle of the quotes....I can come up with just as many to show my point that you don't have to be baptised to be saved.
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