Aqualung vs Buttercup (Kingdom, choice, church, sin, bible)

[Squirt]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Squirt....did you read any of my posts?

Yes I did. I read most of what both you and Aqualung said, not at critically as either of you did, but enough to understand your position.

Dawny and I say almost exactly the same things. It's the belief in Christ and repentance of your sins that saves you. Can we all agree on that yet?

Well, I hate to say it, but I'm afraid not. Interestingly, you have mentioned the two things that we LDS would call the first two principles of the gospel -- faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and reptentence for one's sins. These two principles are absolutely essential for salvation. Unfortunately, that's as far as you took it.

Jesus said that we much be born of water and of the spirit. Both of you have said that water baptism is not required. Dawny has said that as soon as you believe in Christ you are baptized by the Holy Ghost. This would make Jesus instruction to His Apostles to baptize His followers throughout the world meaningless. Neither of you have provided any scriptural evidence which support these beliefs.

You both appear to believe that water baptism is merely a step we can take if we wish, and that its purpose is primarily as an outward show of a change in our hearts. My guess is that the real reason you don't believe that baptism is a required ordinance is that this would leave too many people in the position of not having been saved due to circumstances beyond their control. What kind of a God would deny salvation to millions of sincere believers simply because they had not received water baptism? The question is a good one. The answer, however, does not lie in simply ignoring what Jesus said was a requirement for salvation. It lies instead in recognizing that God has provided a way for all believers to receive baptism. Personally, I can't help but wonder what kind of a God would give mankind a commandment that didn't really matter to him in the first place.

[Squirt]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Squirt,

This site is really slow at night for some reason for me...it's frustrating. It's taken me 15 mintues just to post the little bit that I have. After this I am getting offline.

This whole debate started from another thread where Aqua said those people that accepted Christ and repented but weren't baptized while on earth go to 'spirit prison'. Most Prostestant Christians believe if you have accepted Christ and repented of your sins you are saved and then receive the Holy Spirit. IF you die before being baptized, you still go to be with Christ. This was the original point started in another place and brought here.

I want to know where the LDS come up with the idea that if you accept Christ as Lord and Saviour, repent of your sins but die before baptism takes place, you go to spirit prison. That's where we took off on the notion that the water does not save you. Your beliefs do. Baptism is a good thing and advisable as we keep saying. But no where does it teach in scripture that you go to 'spirit prison' if you die without baptism. Show us where it says this please.

Thanks for taking the time to get us back on the right track. In reading your first post on this thread, I thought the topic had sort of strayed. I'm going to go back to the subject of the Spirit Prison. But before I do, it would be helpful to me if you could tell me where you believe Jesus went during the three days His body lay in the tomb.

1 Peter 3:18-19 speaks of this event: For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison...

1 Peter 4:6 mentions it as well: For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

I'll be happy to respond to your questions once I know how you interpret these verses.
Where do you believe Jesus went? What did He go while He was there? And what was the result of His visit?

[Squirt]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

We believe VERY MUCH in the rebirth. And the "rebirth" or newbirth is discussed in John...Chapter 3:1-21.

I'm going to kind of break down my beliefs of how one becomes a Christian...and undergoes the rebirth.

(Anthing I take from this book word for word...("The New Birth" by Kenneth E. Hagin)...I'll post as a quote.)

"Therefore, if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away, behold, all things are become new."

2 Corinthians 5:17

According to the Bible, when we accept Christ into our lives, in essence...we're dying to live. We're laying our lives down to accept a new life in Christ, Jesus.

I agree with everything you have said up to this point, Dawny. The Book of Mormon teaches essentially the same thing. I don't normally quote from the Book of Mormon in debates, since there is little point to my doing so. I'll make an exception today, simply to help you understand that the concept of a spiritual rebirth is truly is important to us, too:

Mosiah 5:7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.

Mosiah 27:25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters...

Alma 5:12-14 And according to his faith there was a mighty change wrought in his heart. Behold I say unto you that this is all true. And behold, he preached the word unto your fathers, and a mighty change was also wrought in their hearts, and they humbled themselves and put their trust in the true and living God. And behold, they were faithful until the end; therefore they were saved. And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?

Alma 7:14 Now I say unto you that ye must repent, and be born again; for the Spirit saith if ye are not born again ye cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore come and be baptized unto repentance, that ye may be washed from your sins, that ye may have faith on the Lamb of God, who taketh away the sins of the world, who is mighty to save and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.

When you accept Christ...repent for your sins and open your heart to Him...you receive the Holy Spirit. At our Church, the Pastor and even members of the congregation lay hands on you. And it's an amazing experience...when I went up to the front of the church and received...it was the most amazingly spiritual experience of my entire life. I literally felt a spritual release of all the baggage I had carried my entire life...all the sin...the hurt...the worry...it dissipated. In a spiritual sense...I felt Satan lose his grip on my heart and then felt the warmth and fire of the Holy Spirit come upon me...enveloping me...filling me. There was no doubt that I had received the Lord Jesus Christ. No doubt. I felt a freedom and have felt a freedom since then that is just awesome. There is no peace like the peace that is found in Christ.

Once I had the Holy Spirit working within me...I began to change. The world...all the uglies of the world just seemed smaller and smaller and wholesome things began to mean more to me. I was literally changing from within. I was a new person. This is the new birth in Christ.

I can't argue with your experience, Dawny, nor would I want to. I don't doubt a word of what you said. My only issue is with the authority by which these people laid their hands on you. But if we were to go off on that subject now, the topic of debate first laid down by Aqualung and Buttercup would be taken even further off course.

Wanted to provide you with another intepretation of "water" baptism. I lean toward accepting that we are to be born of WATER AND THE SPIRIT in this sense moreso than I believe that the WATER baptism in a literal sense is necessary to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

And it makes sense. You can't come to Christ without accepting the WORD of God....the "water".

That's an interesting interpretation, and it makes a certain amount of sense. Still, however, it leaves two unanswered questions in my mind: (1) Why did Jesus go to John the Baptist to receive baptism? Why would this have been necessary for him and not us? Certainly, He already was filled with the Spirit. But He had not fulfilled this one simple act required of Him. (2) Why did He tell the Apostles to baptize people if one is baptized without the assistance of another human being, simply by believing in Christ? What was He telling them to do anyway?

[Buttercup]

Just stopping in for a quick check on updates. Too much to do around here today to stay long. Looks like we may have to move the thread. That's fine with me MODS.

Squirt,

Do you agree with FFH's post here?

If you have accepted Christ, and have died, but were never baptized, you will be given the opportunity to accept the ordinance of baptism in the next life. This is why Latter-day Saints do baptisms for the dead.

Edit: Spirit Prison is for those that have not accepted Christ as their Savior. Spirit Paradise is for those that have accepted Christ as their Savior.

This post aligns more in keeping with the originals points.
Are these two statements true to you as well?

And as I've said before, the LDS teach different doctrine in many areas than mainstream Prostestants and we could be here for the rest of our lives.
___________________________

[Squirt]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Do you agree with FFH's post here?

Yes, in spite of the fact that he wasn't supposed to have posted at all, he did a good job of explaining our belief.

Originally Posted by Buttercup

This post aligns more in keeping with the originals points.
Are these two statements true to you as well?

I think that's probably a reasonably accurate way of putting it.

And as I've said before, the LDS teach different doctrine in many areas than mainstream Prostestants and we could be here for the rest of our lives.

You may be right. My point in being here is to convince you that there is biblical evidence for the LDS position. I don't expect to convert you, but I would like very much to help you understand that we are not simply pulling our beliefs out of thin air. We haven't even touched on baptisms for the dead, which were practiced anciently just as today. Are you saying you don't want to continue the debate because you don't see it going anywhere except around in circles?

[Buttercup]

No, I just want everyone to stay on topic. This is what I wanted to talk about orginally and I want to finish it to the end. FFH's comments are in direct opposition to Aqua's. So who's views are correct? Aqua's or yours and FFH's? I want correct LDS doctrine established before we proceed.

See you later today.....

[Squirt]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

No, I just want everyone to stay on topic. This is what I wanted to talk about orginally and I want to finish it to the end. FFH's comments are in direct opposition to Aqua's. So who's views are correct? Aqua's or yours and FFH's? I want correct LDS doctrine established before we proceed.

See you later today.....

Okay, why don't you start by directing me to the specific posts in which Aqulung stated her understanding of LDS doctrine. (Do cut her some slack, though. Unless I'm mistaken, she is a relatively new LDS convert.)

[Aqualung]

This is a two-on-two debate!! If you have something you want to say, either PM dawny or buttercup of me or squirt, depending on who you want to tell. There will be no exceptions!