Aqualung vs Netdoc (Jesus Christ, moral, Moses, Earth, gospel)

[Aqualung]

sort of, no. those are the answers. I'll answer the rest later.

[Scuba Pete]

FWIW,

I will await your full answer before I continue.

However, I may not be able to sign on until Monday as I am traveling south to go diving and take a class. Don't take my absense as being unwilling to continue. This has been enjoyable.

[Aqualung]

Okay. I, too, think this debate has been enjoyable, so it's good to know you're not ditching it.

[Aqualung]

Ok. Here goes.

Jesus didn't fulfill the law in that he abolished it completely. He fullfilled it in that he brought it to the next step. The Mosaic law was the lower law. In essence, it was the child's law. It showed exactly what you had to do, and how. It didn't leave any wiggle room, because that could be disastrous. Like with a child, you don't say "you can touch the stove when it's off, but not when it's on." They could misconstrue that. You say, "You can't touch the stove at all." Then, when they mature, they get to the higher "law" - you can touch the stove when it's off. This is a fulfillment of the lower law. But the thing is, you're still essentially following the lower law. You're not touching the stove when it can do you harm, which was essentially what the lower law was. It was designed to help you from getting hurt. But then, once you grow and can understand the higher law, you can follow it with sort of less work. That's how the mosaic law is with Jesus's fulfillment. it's not necessarily an abolishment.

Since it's like I said it was (), love is the higher law. But, love does not abolish that lower law. It just fulfills is. It's saying, just love one another. Not because that's all you have to do, but because, if you do that, you will be following the lower law anyway. It's the higher law, that isn't spelled out in black and white, but the end result should be the same.

As for the woman who washed his feet. If she had sold the stuff to the poor people (well, you get what I mean), she would also have been showing love to Christ. If you do it unto the least of these, you're doing it unto me. They both would have been gestures of love. In that light, we can see that it's not just love that matters; it's how you show your love that matters as well.

[Aqualung]

Here's another thought. The reason we are here, isn't just to love each other. It's not just, "Oh, I'm here, I love you, bye bye." The purpose we are here is to become like God. Christ gave the perfect example. He even said, "be ye perfect, even as I am perfect." We are supposed to emulate him to the greatest extent possible. Now, Jesus did not just love. He did other things, too (like the ever popular getting baptised). That's another part of the how we show our love, that's so important.

[Scuba Pete]

The law "ends" with death.

Romans7:1 Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. NIV

Jesus died for our sins.

Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. NIV

Jesus' death defeated "death".

II Timothy 1:8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. NIV

We have also died...

Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.


5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. NIV

Old law= Tablets of death
New law= Written on our hearts

II COrinthians 3:1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.


4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12 Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14 But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. NIV

Now in all fairness, I believe we are talking past each other. When I say "love", I mean John 3:16 love; sacrificial and full of action. I do not feel that "emotions" have anything to do with it, as God's love is a decision to put OTHERS first. This scripture epitomizes that "Godly" love for us:

II Corinthians 5:11 Since, then, we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. 12 We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can answer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. 13 If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. 14For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. NIV

So, through these scriptures we can see that the law's control of us ends with our death. That Jesus destroyed death's control of us by HIS death and that we actually DIE when we are baptised! NOW... we are controlled by God's love and indeed, Christ's love COMPELS us to an active Godly love.

Love God

Love everyone else

Just don't substitute lip service for Agape (Godly love).

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

The law "ends" with death.

Romans7:1 Do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to men who know the law—that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2 For example, by law a married woman is bound to her husband as long as he is alive, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3 So then, if she marries another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is released from that law and is not an adulteress, even though she marries another man. NIV

Okay, I'll grant you that the death of the husband absolves the wife of the law of adultery. But, you go on to say that Jesus died for our sins and freed us from the law. Does this now mean that if a married woman sleeps with a man while her husband still lives, that she is not an adulteress? It would certainly seem so, if Jesus's death freed us from the law. In fact, however, his death only fulfilled the law, or raised it from the lower to the higher law. He brought us to the higher law (looking on somebody is now adultery). The thing is, you can look at anybody you want, and still love. It's not just love we need. We need to live the higher law of Jesus which, yes, hangs on love, but is not love entirely.

Originally Posted by Net Doc

Jesus died for our sins.

Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. NIV

Yes, Jesus died for our sins, this is true.

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Jesus' death defeated "death".

II Timothy 1:8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. NIV

This is also true. I have no contention with this.

Originally Posted by ND

We have also died...

Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. NIV

v.1 "Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound." There cannot be sin without law. (see the last paragraphs for why). Your verses don't say that we died with Christ's death. It says that we reap the benefits of his death. We have not died, only he has, but with his death, even we can live. v.4 We are baptised into his death (in that, through his death we can benefit from his atonement) and lifted out of the water into his life (in that we must mimic his life). We do not become "dead to the law" as you are trying to say.

Originally Posted by ND

Old law= Tablets of death
New law= Written on our hearts

II Corinthians 3:1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. 4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

That is because if you only follow the letter of the law, you don't understand it. Paul is trying to get us to see the spirit (not Spirit) of the law. That's part of the fulfillment of the law. We are no longer just expected to follow the letter of the law, but the spirit of it. The spirit of the law is love, yes. But that's the spirit of the law, not the entire law in and of itself, and all we need, etc.

Originally Posted by ND

11 And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Something is going to last. ie, not the entire law is done away with.

Originally Posted by ND

Now in all fairness, I believe we are talking past each other. When I say "love", I mean John 3:16 love; sacrificial and full of action. I do not feel that "emotions" have anything to do with it, as God's love is a decision to put OTHERS first. This scripture epitomizes that "Godly" love for us:

Yes, this is what concept I am at least trying to adopt for the debate. I appologize if I'm doing a very good job of expressing myself or my beliefs.


Okay, one of the main themes I see in this is that we are freed from the law. But, since sin is transgression of the law (Rom 4:15 "for where there is no law, there is no transgression"), it seems rediculous to think this is true. This would mean that it would be impossible for us to sin! "All have sinned." In order for all to have sinned, there must indeed be a law to transgression. Jesus didn't do away with the law, but brought it to the next step. The mosaic law, with all its... wordiness... was given to show the unrighteous what sin was. Now the higher law, which hangs on love, is the next step in not sinning. It's the meat that comes after the milk. It doesn't abolish the law. It brings it to the next step, but the next step isn't just "love god, love yourself." there's more to it than that. Here's another one: Rom 5:13 "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." Or for the NRSV "sin was indeed in the world before the law, but sin is not reckoned when there is no law." Law is necessary for there to be and judgement/justice.