Jesus - Salvation through his death? (Earth, Kingdom, hell, preaching)

[Halcyon]

I'd like a one on one debate with a Christian of the orthodox persuasion, that is, someone who believes whole-heartedly in salvation through Jesus's sacrifice. Could be Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Protestant, JW, Mormon - it doesn't matter.

The topic of debate will be the nature of the salvation Jesus offered. Gnostic versus Orthodox.

Any takers?

[Aqualung]

I would.

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

I would.

Well well, if it isn't young Miss Lung. I'm not putting the kid gloves on, despite our shared affinity for badgers.

Okay then, i'll open with an extremely controversial question;

If you accept that Jesus's role here on Earth was to die so that God would be appeased (this is how i see it, do tell me if i'm wrong) and so relieve us of original sin, then are you not then accepting the validity of human sacrifice?

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Well well, if it isn't young Miss Lung. I'm not putting the kid gloves on, despite our shared affinity for badgers.

Okay then, i'll open with an extremely controversial question;

If you accept that Jesus's role here on Earth was to die so that God would be appeased (this is how i see it, do tell me if i'm wrong) and so relieve us of original sin, then are you not then accepting the validity of human sacrifice?

Sort of. It's not relieve us of original sin, but to cleanse us of the sins we actually commit. No unclean thing can enter in the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, there needed to be someone who would "wash away" the dirtyness that we build up during life. This person had to be perfect himself. He had to spend all his time atoning for our sins that he couldn't have any himself. Also, it was through transgression that death and sin came into this world (when Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knowledge), so it had be through lack of sin that we got saved. And it's not "human sacrifce" per se. It's the sacrifce of the only begotten son of god in the flesh, who was sinless himself. Sure, he was human, but I don't accept the sacrifice of any other human, nor do I think such sacrifice would help anything.

[Halcyon]

Ok then, but why exactly did he have to die?

He was the son of God, or God in human form, however you like to look at it. Surely it would have been better to teach us how to rid ourselves of sin, how to live a good life. Which is exactly what he did up until his execution.

Seems to me that by us killing him, we only demonstrate how ignorant we are of right and wrong. Murder of course is a sin, so if you celebrate the murder of Jesus are you not also celebrating sin?

For centuries people have been sacrificing animals and humans to remove their sin, it seems only logical for the people of the time to have simply extended this to the sacrifice of Jesus.

Another thought springs to mind, if Jesus only came to Earth to die, why did he not simply kill himself as a child? He could have done it in a far less painful manner than crucifixtion. If only his death were needed, why bother with all the preaching?

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Ok then, but why exactly did he have to die?

He was the son of God, or God in human form, however you like to look at it. Surely it would have been better to teach us how to rid ourselves of sin, how to live a good life. Which is exactly what he did up until his execution.

Seems to me that by us killing him, we only demonstrate how ignorant we are of right and wrong. Murder of course is a sin, so if you celebrate the murder of Jesus are you not also celebrating sin?

For centuries people have been sacrificing animals and humans to remove their sin, it seems only logical for the people of the time to have simply extended this to the sacrifice of Jesus.

Another thought springs to mind, if Jesus only came to Earth to die, why did he not simply kill himself as a child? He could have done it in a far less painful manner than crucifixtion. If only his death were needed, why bother with all the preaching?

He had to die to break the bands of death. Somebody sin free had to be resurected first, so that our resurections may follow.

He tried teaching us to rid ourselves of sin, but nobody can do it. God knew nobody would be able to do it, so, from the foundation of the world, he presented a way for us to be redeemed, to have our sins cleansed so that we could return to the kingdom of heaven.

Of course killing him demonstrated ignorance. He was the son of God, yet they still killed him. I don't celebrate his death in that I praise those who killed him. I just know that he had to die.

He couldn't kill himself as a child for a number of reasons. 1 is that one of the reasons he came was to preach and do miracles. Little kids can't do that. Another is that then he would not be free of sin. The third is that so when he comes again in his glory he can show those who didn't believe the marks on his hands and feet.

[Halcyon]

So are the marks on his hands and feet important then? Did he have to die by crucifixtion, would stoning or hanging not have been equally good?

He tried teaching us to rid ourselves of sin, but nobody can do it. God knew nobody would be able to do it, so, from the foundation of the world, he presented a way for us to be redeemed, to have our sins cleansed so that we could return to the kingdom of heaven.

Surely God can do anything?

I believe that Jesus came here to teach us how to save ourselves, surely (i seem to like that word today) earning our place with God through our own efforts is better than relying on someone else?

Also, you still haven't explained why Jesus bothered with his miracles and teachings if his only real purpose was to die.

Don't you think that it makes more sense for God to send a messanger to teach us the ways of light, a message that all mankind can hear, understand and use, than to rely on the belief in sacrifice for atonement?

He couldn't kill himself as a child for a number of reasons. 1 is that one of the reasons he came was to preach and do miracles. Little kids can't do that. Another is that then he would not be free of sin...

I assume the sin you speak of is the sin of suicide? If so, he commited that anyway if your version of events is accepted. If he was destined to die on Earth, then by coming to Earth he was commiting suicide.

If i don't want to accept Jesus's sacrifice, if i want to atone for my own sins, to become one with God through my own merits, will i go to hell?

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

So are the marks on his hands and feet important then? Did he have to die by crucifixtion, would stoning or hanging not have been equally good?

No, I don't think it was the crucifixtion that was important. It's just what the Romans were good at.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Surely God can do anything?

It's not God's powers that are in question - it's our own.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

I believe that Jesus came here to teach us how to save ourselves, surely (i seem to like that word today) earning our place with God through our own efforts is better than relying on someone else?

Yes, I definitely think we have to do our own part, and that we do have to earn our place beside God. But, as no clean thing can enter into the Kingdom of heaven, somebody had to wash away our sins. Jesus saves us after all we can do.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Also, you still haven't explained why Jesus bothered with his miracles and teachings if his only real purpose was to die.

Because he did have to teach us stuff. He had to restore the higher priesthood, for one. He had to give us a higher law. He had to teach us how to follow that higher law to return to live with God some day.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Don't you think that it makes more sense for God to send a messanger to teach us the ways of light, a message that all mankind can hear, understand and use, than to rely on the belief in sacrifice for atonement?

Obviously not, or that's what I would believe in.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

I assume the sin you speak of is the sin of suicide? If so, he commited that anyway if your version of events is accepted. If he was destined to die on Earth, then by coming to Earth he was commiting suicide.

No, that's not true at all. Knowledge of something doesn't make one culpable (to use a spanish word that for some reason I can't think of the English) of that sin.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

If i don't want to accept Jesus's sacrifice, if i want to atone for my own sins, to become one with God through my own merits, will i go to hell?

No, I don't think so. Because even I realise that you have to do your part, too. You can't just rely on Jesus to carry you straight into the highest degree of heaven without you having to lift a finger.