Jesus - Salvation through his death? (Earth, Kingdom, hell, preaching)

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Yes, I definitely think we have to do our own part, and that we do have to earn our place beside God. But, as no unclean thing can enter into the Kingdom of heaven, somebody had to wash away our sins. Jesus saves us after all we can do.

Sorry for my ignorance, but i don't understand how the killing of a sinless man somehow washes away our sins. Please could you explain? Couldn't God simply have given us a verbal pardoning, through a prophet or another way? What i'm driving at is, why was the death of an innocent man absolutely necessary?

Originally Posted by Aqualung

No, that's not true at all. Knowledge of something doesn't make one culpable (to use a spanish word that for some reason I can't think of the English) of that sin.

I don't understand, are you saying that if i stood under a piano i knew would be dropped, that would not be suicide?

Leading on from that. Do you blame anyone for Jesus's death? Judas perhaps, maybe Pilate or even the general public who asked for Barabas? Is anyone to blame for Jesus's death?

Originally Posted by Aqualung

No, I don't think so. Because even I realise that you have to do your part, too. You can't just rely on Jesus to carry you straight into the highest degree of heaven without you having to lift a finger.

But what if i follow all of his teachings, but never accept his death as a gift? Will St. Peter stop me at the gate and not let me in?

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Sorry for my ignorance, but i don't understand how the killing of a sinless man somehow washes away our sins. Please could you explain? Couldn't God simply have given us a verbal pardoning, through a prophet or another way? What i'm driving at is, why was the death of an innocent man absolutely necessary?

I don't really either. But it has to do with the fact that someone had to suffer for our sins. If not, God would be a liar. He can't just let us go through life sinning and what not, and then just say, "Oh, well, you sinned, so what? Come on in!" Somebody has to take the punishment for our sins. It could either be that every single one of us could suffer in hell forever, or that a sinless man could take that all upon him for a short time.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

I don't understand, are you saying that if i stood under a piano i knew would be dropped, that would not be suicide?

No, it would just be stupidity. You'll probably get some questions from God as to why you chose not to move, and your answers would be revealing. Did you choose not to move because your death did the most good for other people, or because you were just sick of life and you wanted to die? Also, whoever dropped that piano had to choose to drop it. The Jews had to choose to crucify Jesus. Judas had to choose to betray Jesus. You don't learn much if you aren't allowed to choose anything. Sometimes the ways we learn best is by making the wrong choice, and then seeing the consequences of those choices.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Leading on from that. Do you blame anyone for Jesus's death? Judas perhaps, maybe Pilate or even the general public who asked for Barabas? Is anyone to blame for Jesus's death?

I don't really blame anyone, per se. Judas certainly was wrong to betray Jesus; Pilate was certainly wrong to let Barabas go instead. The Jews were certainly wrong to crucify the Messiah. But all this leads back to the fact that he had to die, and they had to make the choice to kill him. And it goes back to our own sinful nature. In that regard, we are all to blame for killing him.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

But what if i follow all of his teachings, but never accept his death as a gift? Will St. Peter stop me at the gate and not let me in?

You couldn't really follow all of his teachings and never accept his death. That is one of the things he teaches us, is to follow him, not just the things that he says. And of course, as a mormon, I think his teachings are more than what's just in the Bible...

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

I don't really either. But it has to do with the fact that someone had to suffer for our sins. If not, God would be a liar. He can't just let us go through life sinning and what not, and then just say, "Oh, well, you sinned, so what? Come on in!" Somebody has to take the punishment for our sins. It could either be that every single one of us could suffer in hell forever, or that a sinless man could take that all upon him for a short time.

Or, the third possibility that sinning leads to its own punishment. The very act of doing a wrong deed leads us to guilt and to internal suffering. We all suffer for our sins, would God not be happy with our repentance and our attempts to make amense for those sins? You would say not, i guess.
Personally i would not ask Jesus to suffer for me, if i do bad then i must live with the consequences. It is very 'Christian' for Jesus to offer himself as sacrifice, but how Christian is it to accept that sacrifice?

p.s. as for God being a liar, in my opinion the god in question is a liar.

Originally Posted by Aqualung

No, it would just be stupidity. You'll probably get some questions from God as to why you chose not to move, and your answers would be revealing. Did you choose not to move because your death did the most good for other people, or because you were just sick of life and you wanted to die? Also, whoever dropped that piano had to choose to drop it. The Jews had to choose to crucify Jesus. Judas had to choose to betray Jesus. You don't learn much if you aren't allowed to choose anything. Sometimes the ways we learn best is by making the wrong choice, and then seeing the consequences of those choices.

Seems a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo to me. Logically if i stood under the piano knowing i would die, even if by doing so i would save a billion others, how can it not be suicide?

Originally Posted by Aqualung

I don't really blame anyone, per se. Judas certainly was wrong to betray Jesus; Pilate was certainly wrong to let Barabas go instead. The Jews were certainly wrong to crucify the Messiah. But all this leads back to the fact that he had to die, and they had to make the choice to kill him. And it goes back to our own sinful nature. In that regard, we are all to blame for killing him.

How can anyone be to blame, if Jesus's purpose was to die. Someone had to kill him, he couldn't do it himself. It is preordained, the people mentioned are but pawns in a great game of chess. If these people had not done the things they did, then others would have had to do something very similar. Do you not see, you cannot have it both ways, you can't say Jesus was meant to die AND blame those who kill him. Its a paradoxical situation.

Originally Posted by Aqualung

You couldn't really follow all of his teachings and never accept his death. That is one of the things he teaches us, is to follow him, not just the things that he says. And of course, as a mormon, I think his teachings are more than what's just in the Bible...

If we took that literally, then shouldn't we all sacrifice ourselves?

[nutshell]

Comment deleted one-on-one debate. Robtex

[Aqualung]

Halcyon - God is both just and merciful. If we commit a sin, somebody needs to suffer (because God is just). Yet if we suffered for our own sins (if sinful man tried to atone for his own sins) that atonment wouldn't be enough. It would not be just. So a sinless man needed to do it. Also, God, in his mercy, didn't want to see us try to atone for our own sins (because we would undoubtedly fail) so he had to, in his mercy, provide a different route.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Or, the third possibility that sinning leads to its own punishment. The very act of doing a wrong deed leads us to guilt and to internal suffering.

In this case, the punishment does not fit the crime.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

We all suffer for our sins, would God not be happy with our repentance and our attempts to make amense for those sins?

Yes. Because God is a merciful God, he is happy with those attempts. Yet, he is also a just God. So somebody had to atone for our sins.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Personally i would not ask Jesus to suffer for me, if i do bad then i must live with the consequences. It is very 'Christian' for Jesus to offer himself as sacrifice, but how Christian is it to accept that sacrifice?

Hmmm, interesting point. In other words, why should I rejoice that somebody had to go through all that suffering?

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Seems a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo to me. Logically if i stood under the piano knowing i would die, even if by doing so i would save a billion others, how can it not be suicide?

Perhaps it is rather an argument of semantics. But God looks not only at our actions, but at the motivations that led to those actions. It may "technically" be suicide, but the motives are not suicidal.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

It is preordained, the people mentioned are but pawns in a great game of chess.

It's not preordained. They still had to choose.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

If we took that literally, then shouldn't we all sacrifice ourselves?

We aren't good enough. Like all through Mosaic law, you had to sacrifice a lamb without defect, etc. We're not good enough for his justice, but Jesus and our works are good enough for his justice and his mercy.

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Halcyon - God is both just and merciful. If we commit a sin, somebody needs to suffer (because God is just). Yet if we suffered for our own sins (if sinful man tried to atone for his own sins) that atonment wouldn't be enough. It would not be just. So a sinless man needed to do it. Also, God, in his mercy, didn't want to see us try to atone for our own sins (because we would undoubtedly fail) so he had to, in his mercy, provide a different route.

This i simply don't understand, maybe that's why i ascribe to the Gnostic viewpoint. Why, if we commit the sins, are we not good enough to pay the price? Sorry if i'm being dense. I can understand a merciful God not wanting us to atone for sins, if they were impossible to atone for, yet i still cannot get my head around why His solution needed to involve the torture and execution of a good man.

Originally Posted by Aqualung

In this case, the punishment does not fit the crime.

Depends what the crime is. Have you read crime and Punishment by Dostoyevsky?

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Yes. Because God is a merciful God, he is happy with those attempts. Yet, he is also a just God. So somebody had to atone for our sins.

Again its like the point above, i'd be happy to suffer for my own sins, i could not ask a man like Jesus to do that for me.

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Hmmm, interesting point. In other words, why should I rejoice that somebody had to go through all that suffering?

I'd rephase it as, how could you let anyone go through all that suffering for your sins?

Originally Posted by Aqualung

Perhaps it is rather an argument of semantics. But God looks not only at our actions, but at the motivations that led to those actions. It may "technically" be suicide, but the motives are not suicidal.

Good answer, have a banana.

Originally Posted by Aqualung

It's not preordained. They still had to choose.

It is preordained, you said yourself Jesus had to die. If these poor souls had not been chosen to be involved in the plot, then some others would have to have been. Someone had to kill Jesus, there is no way out of that, and if someone had to do it how can you blame that person?

Originally Posted by Aqualung

We aren't good enough. Like all through Mosaic law, you had to sacrifice a lamb without defect, etc. We're not good enough for his justice, but Jesus and our works are good enough for his justice and his mercy.

Do you not see the commonality? Do you not think that maybe, Jesus's death was simply made into a sacrifice after the fact? People had been sacrificing lambs for years like you say, so why not make your leader's death into the ultimate sacrifice?
I'm not sure why i phrased that as a question, since i know you disagree, but it is my viewpoint nonetheless.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

It is preordained, you said yourself Jesus had to die. If these poor souls had not been chosen to be involved in the plot, then some others would have to have been. Someone had to kill Jesus, there is no way out of that, and if someone had to do it how can you blame that person?

Yes, Jesus had to die, but the people still had to choose to kill him. Judas could have chosen not to betray him. Then he would have died some other way.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Do you not see the commonality? Do you not think that maybe, Jesus's death was simply made into a sacrifice after the fact? People had been sacrificing lambs for years like you say, so why not make your leader's death into the ultimate sacrifice?
I'm not sure why i phrased that as a question, since i know you disagree, but it is my viewpoint nonetheless.

Yes, I understand where you're coming from. You're going the wrong way, though. God new Jesus would have to be sacrificed for our sins, so he implemented the Mosaic as a type of his ultimate sacrifice.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Again its like the point above, i'd be happy to suffer for my own sins, i could not ask a man like Jesus to do that for me.

It wouldn't be enough, though. The only way that a sinful person could atone for their own sins is by spending eternity in hell. A sinless person, on the other hand, can take the sins of the world upon himself and suffer for a much shorter length of time and atone for everybody's sins.