Aqulaung v Buttercup debate discussion! (paradise, salvation, hell, LDS)

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

And next time be prepared for much more scripture inclusions!

Funny you should say that. I probably quoted 3x as much scripture as anybody. And I tied my beliefs into scripture...

[Buttercup]

Your points were wrong however......so does it matter? How can you even bring scripture in to cover a wrong point?

And FFH....the term spirit prison was brought up by Aqua. I had never heard the term before.

And Aqua....I meant that I would include more scripture next time, not you. I know how to be humble when it's necessary.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Your points were wrong however......so does it matter? How can you even bring scripture in to cover a wrong point

My points were wrong? Then why didn't you try to tell me they were wrong, which something substantial to back them up with? Oh, wait. I remeber. because it's all up to interpretation. But if that's true, how can I be wrong?

[Buttercup]

Because I did not know the spirit prison and they way you were debating it was wrong....as I have said SEVERAL times, had you had the right definition of what YOUR spirit prison was, our debate would have ended much sooner.

[FFH]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

My points were wrong? Then why didn't you try to tell me they were wrong, which something substantial to back them up with? Oh, wait. I remeber. because it's all up to interpretation. But if that's true, how can I be wrong?

I think that some great points have been brought up on both sides of this issue. I have enjoyed reading this debate, from the beginning.

Both sides have brought up such great issues !!! I think the issues brought up in this "one on one" debate deserve to be discussed further, in another thread, by all parties involved, Buttercup, Dawny, Aqualung, Squirt, myself, and anyone else that feels they have thoughts on on these issues, like possibly Wman and Feathers.

[dawny0826]

Originally Posted by FFH

I think that some great points have been brought up on both sides of this issue. I have enjoyed reading this debate, from the beginning.

Both sides have brought up such great issues !!! I think the issues brought up in this "one on one" debate deserve to be discussed further, in another thread, by all parties involved, Buttercup, Dawny, Aqualung, Squirt, myself, and anyone else that feels they have thoughts on on these issues, like possibly Wman and Feathers.

I'm game for that.

I did my best to provide scripture to support my beliefs.

[FFH]

I think this debate insued due to the fact that Protestants, Charismatics, Pentacostals and other like religions put such a great emphasis on the principles necessary for salvation like faith in Christ's atonement, and repentance, and the LDS religion seems to put such an emphasis on the ordinances necessary for salvation, like baptism and "the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost" and many other necessary ordinances and covenants that are done in LDS temples to seal families together in "heaven", so that they can live with Christ and the Father.

Both are extremely important:

Christ's first principles:
Faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ
Repentance of sins.

Christ's first ordinances:
Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins
The laying on of hands, by those who are in authority, for the gift of the Holy Ghost

I am very much edified by religions that emphasize faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice for sins, and these religions minister to me in an extremely important way. We as LDS can learn from these religions that put such a great emphasis on Christ and his atoning sacrifice for our sins, and at the same time we can minister to others the importance of the saving ordinances such as baptism and the laying on of hands, by those who are in authority, for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[dawny0826]

Originally Posted by FFH

I think this debate insued due to the fact that Protestants, Charismatics, Pentacostals and othe like religions put such a great emphasis on the principles necessary for salvation like faith in Christ's atonement, and repentance, and the LDS religion seems to put such an emphasis on the ordinances necessary for salvation, like baptism and "the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost" and many other necessary ordinances and covenants that are done in LDS temples to seal families together in "heaven" so that they can live with Christ and the Father.

Both are extremely important:

Christ's first principles:
Faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ
Repentance of sins".

Christ's first ordinances:
Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins
The laying on of hands, by those who are in authority, for the gift of the Holy Ghost

I am very much edified by religions that emphasize faith in Jesus Christ and his atoning sacrifice for sins, and these religions minister to me in an extremely important way. We as LDS can learn from these religions that put such a great emphasis on Christ and his atoning sacrifice for our sins, and at the same time we can minister to others the importance of the saving ordinances such as baptism and the laying on of hands, by those who are in authority, for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And I guess my stance is that although baptism and laying on of hands is important...

It is my belief and the belief of many people of similar faith that WATER baptism and laying on of hands is not necessary for salvation. And I feel when we place so much in the formalities of a specific church, a specific religion...we lose sight on what we have...what we're individually capable of because of Christ Jesus who is within us.

Many receive the Holy Spirit without formalities. You can establish a relationship with Christ without the formalities of a specific religion. I don't have to have someone in authority lay hands on me in order for me to receive the Holy Spirit. Why? Man does not give that gift...GOD gives that gift to those who accept Christ.

Authority in my life...is Christ Jesus and the Word of God Almighty. I was saved by the spiritual baptism...the moment I accepted Christ and repented of my sins.

I won't go into any more detail on this thread, so as not to bust any rules but if anyone would like to start a thread on any of the above stated topics, I'd love to participate.

Edit: I don't mean any of these comments as a flame against any particular religion...I'm expressing my opinion about Christian religions in general.

[FFH]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

And I guess my stance is that although baptism and laying on of hands is important...

It is my belief and the belief of many people of similar faith that WATER baptism and laying on of hands is not necessary for salvation. And I feel when we place so much in the formalities of a specific church, a specific religion...we lose sight on what we have...what we're individually capable of because of Christ Jesus who is within us.

Many receive the Holy Spirit without formalities. You can establish a relationship with Christ without the formalities of a specific religion. I don't have to have someone in authority lay hands on me in order for me to receive the Holy Spirit. Why? Man does not give that gift...GOD gives that gift to those who accept Christ.

Authority in my life...is Christ Jesus and the Word of God Almighty. I was saved by the spiritual baptism...the moment I accepted Christ and repented of my sins.

We as LDS do not claim our authority to be of men either. Christ is our authority and has given his authority to men on earth, in order to perform his ordinance of "baptism by immersion" for the remission of sins, and the "laying on of hands" for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

John the Baptist was given the authority to baptize, by Jesus Christ, and men on earth may do the same, if given the authority to do so by Jesus Christ. The LDS religion claims to have the right to baptize in the name of Jesus Christ, because it was given to Joseph Smith by John the Baptist, himself, who appeared to Joseph, as a resurrected being, and layed hands on his head, himself, and gave him the authority to baptize, in the name of Jesus Christ. We are allowed to baptize "in the name of Jesus Christ", or for, and in behalf of, Jesus Christ, because of Christ's authority which was given to Joseph Smith, by John the Baptist, who received his authority to baptize from Jesus Christ.

I am not saying this to proselyte, but to explain that we do not do what we do because of the "authority of men", as many suppose. We do what we do by the authority of Jesus Christ, and baptize men by this same authority, which was given to John the Baptist, by Jesus Christ himself.

Physical baptism is a necessary part of our salvation. I do not understand why Jesus Christ set it up this way, I just know that he did.

There is no doubt in my mind, Dawny, that you have been baptized, by Christ in the spirit, and have been given the Holy Ghost, by Christ in the spirit. All I am saying is that Christ, for reasons I don't fully understand, requires a physical baptism, and a physical laying on of hands, as an outward sign, of our commitment to him. It is an outward sign, or contract, that we have committed ourselves to keep his commandments, at baptism, and will continue to do so, through the help of the Holy Ghost, which is bestowed upon us.