GLBT folks, what did you think about Obama's speech last night?

[Reverend Rick]

Originally Posted by OmarKhayyam

Freedom of religion means all religions or lack there of. The lack of tolerance for both sides is the culprit here.

Calling the religious right ignorant or ******** is just as intolerant as any certain religion imposing their morals on others.

Not quite. “Imposing their morals on others” is what the RR is about. It is their raison d'etre. They are not about practicing their religion. They are about forcing others to do so. The ONLY reason they are in public square is to compel others to act as if they believed the same mythology. Such people may justly be called any number of names.

As to the current topic I know of no spokesperson for the anti-marriage position either here or abroad who does NOT have as justification for their opposition a religious belief. It may be hiding behind code words like ‘well being of the children’ or ‘fundamental unit of society’ or ‘purpose of marriage’ but behind all those phrases lurks religion; as intolerant and absolute and exclusive as ever.

The system will not let me frubal you.

[JMorris]

Originally Posted by Reverend Rick

I stand corrected, we are just non-evil liars.

You cannot help yourself when it comes to personal insults can you?

then prove me wrong. show me where i said "all religious people are evil" and i will retract my claim that you are a liar. until you do, your a liar. tho somehow, i doubt you much care if you known as a liar.

*edit* and, there you go again, lying. who is this "we" that i pointed was lying? do you represent every religious person on earth? im quite sure i only pointed out that you are a liar. and im not insulting you, simply pointing out a trait of your personality. you lie, and are thus, a liar.

[OmarKhayyam]

Originally Posted by Reverend Rick

The system will not let me frubal you.

Understood.

[Reverend Rick]

Originally Posted by JMorris

and where did i demonize everyone that was religious? every reference i made was of the religious right, i didnt even say YOU were part of the religious right, tho i believe that you are. maybe you need some new reading glasses?

So, you think I'm a blind *******, but you never said I was an *******. Nice!

the only two possibilities here are that you misread what i said (which i can accept, tho, given your past posts, i doubt) or you intentionally saying that i said one thing when i didnt.

Play on words.

if you support equal rights for GLBT, thats great, good for you. my beef was with you equating the denial of their rights with people calling the religious right ********.

Your splitting hairs and creating a strawman. The games you are playing is not helping anyone. This situation is going to be solved by winning the hearts and minds of people one by one. Insulting remarks will be counter productive to the cause you believe in so strongly. This is a common tactic among your kind.

Instead of trying to heal differences between people, you are trying to drive wedges.

Have a nice day!

[Mister_T]

***MOD POST***

Hey guys, things seem to be getting personal in here. Let's all turn it down a couple of notches and stick to the topic.

Thanks.

[MysticSang'ha]

C'mon, y'all. Let's lighten up a little, huh?

FWIW, I can totally empathize with Rick's and Kathryn's position. Personally, knowing them both outside of debates and discussions here, I can vouch that both are incredibly wise, warmhearted, and open-minded. My decision to intervene here on their behalf isn't to fish for compliments nor to get brownie points for attempts at peacemaking. They both - along with Apex and others who share their sentiments - are truly compassionate people whose characters, I feel, are under attack needlessly when it comes to GLBTQ issues.

On the other hand, let's face it. It's no secret that being a target of discrimination SUCKS! Perhaps it is helpful to reiterate the struggle itself rather than to attack. Being a part of the community, I understand that it's painful and frustrating to repeat the same thing over and over again when it comes to the systematic discrimination suffered at the hands of the government and the citizens. And personally, I sometimes feel as if I'm talking to my kids when reasoning with them on what is ethical and what isn't (although I'm secretly glad they continue to question, LOL). Now, that is simply a personal feeling, and not a reason to take out frustrations on whomever I'm talking to.

*I've been known to slip on occasion, though........*

I think the problem comes when either side resorts to painting with a broad brush. If a perceived proponent of gay marriage sounds caustic and harsh..........."Intolerant!" If a perceived opponent of gay marriage quotes religious doctrine.............."Intolerant!" And we're all back at Square One again pointing fingers and shouting at each other.

You know, I understand that this is messy. We're human. We have deep emotional ties to our sense of selves and what we value. And learning how to deal with it all side by side with people who we think despise us and want to force us into hiding is stupid-scary. But remember, we only move forward when we can continue to be honest and respectful.

Oh, and my answer to the OP? I always thought that the Obama Administration's stance on the issue of gay marriage is nothing more than pathetic self-serving drivel. Therefore, we still have a ways to go on educating the public and our government on how this discrimination should end for the betterment of our nation.

[Autodidact]

Originally Posted by Kathryn

The silence is deafening. I'd like to hear the GLBT feedback on the whole Obama/gay marriage thing myself.

I don't have a horse in this race but I do think it's really weird that so may GLBT folks are pro-Obama even though he has said repeatedly that he does not support the rights of gays to marry.

Now here's how I feel about the whole marriage rights thing. I think the whole CONCEPT of the STATE/GOVERNMENT giving people (any sort of people) the RIGHT to marry is ridiculous. Since when should the government define marriage rights, or the right to a divorce (for instance, in some states you have to jump through hoops to get a divorce, and in others you have no-fault divorce and it's a cake walk)?

I believe that the government should only be involved on the civil side - in the sense of some sort of legal agreement termed as a civil union - for ALL people.

Anyone in a civil union should have a legal process that is easy to dissolve such a union if desired or necessary.

This takes all questions of morality out of the issue. The morality of a civil union should be decided on by the individuals involved, not the government.

That's just my opinion.

Hmmm. Are you legally married and derive all the benefits of that?

[Autodidact]

Originally Posted by Kathryn

I don't see why those rights couldn't be conferred to people in a civil union.

So what's the difference between marriage and a civil union?

[Autodidact]

Originally Posted by Reverend Rick

Could we get back on topic? This thread was about Barack Obama's speech and if he is going to actually do anything but talk.

Although I haven't seen it yet, I hope and believe that it's going to happen before 2012. As far as movements for social change go, gay rights is moving at lightning speed. It took women 70 years to get the right to vote.

I don't care much about hate crime legislation or even that much about ENDA. The next big thing I'm looking for is ending DADT. It's destructive for gay people, the military, and the nation. I also think getting rid of that will be crucial in the overall fight for equality, which is what I'm interested in. (That's why I'm not big on hate crime legislation, which creates special categories. If we just enforce the law equally, we don't really need it. e.g. Dan White. We didn't need hate crime legislation, just for the jury to convict him of the murders he committed.) I feel confident this will happen by 2012, and will be disappointed if it doesn't. I would like to see it done through Congress. I hope everyone here supports getting rid of this extermely stupid law that mandates dishonesty.

Marriage is a state by state fight. The feds do need to repeal DOMA quick and in a hurry. That was a bad law. In fact I question its constitutionality.

[Autodidact]

Originally Posted by Kathryn

Actually I agree with you on this. I don't want to keep gays from getting married - I want to keep the government OUT of the institution of marriage. I want the government to call MY heterosexual marriage a civil union.

I am all for equal treatment and no discrimination based on sexual preference.

Were you against marriage before gay people wanted in? LIke, say, when you got married?