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  #201  
Old 09-18-2009, 10:12 PM
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What it would take is officials unafraid of religious backlash, unfortunatly, the Fundamentalists are a very vocal minority, and middle-of-the-road voters have a tendency to follow the loudest voice.
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  #202  
Old 09-18-2009, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by tumbleweed41 View Post
What it would take is officials unafraid of religious backlash, unfortunatly, the Fundamentalists are a very vocal minority, and middle-of-the-road voters have a tendency to follow the loudest voice.
In reality I'm sure you're right. But it's rather sad to think laws aren't being enforced because of religious bullies throwing their weight around. This is a contitutial issue, I imagine we could by pass the state officials altogether and bring it to a higher court. Or maybe I'm putting to much faith in our government. I just wonder, why would it be so hard to enforce the constitution? But then again there's all that Bush did in office that makes me wonder how much the constitution is worth anymore.
Last edited by Humanistheart; 09-18-2009 at 10:18 PM..
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  #203  
Old 09-18-2009, 10:18 PM
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And if you don't want laws to be fully enforced who decides which ones are trivial enough to ignore or partially ignore? How about driving drunk? Many people do it so it must not be that important. What about raping young women? This seems fairly common in college from the stats, that must not be important at all. And there's litter. Who cares if you just dump your trash on the highway as you drive? Big deal right?
Common sense. Its easy.....you evaluate each instance one at a time. Its the same way police officers decide if you truly are speeding or not, they determine how fast you are going over the speed limit, weather and road conditions, traffic, etc. Some factors may determine that 1mph over the limit is dangerous and deserves a citation, other factors may determine that 8mph over the limit is within limits and not as dangerous thus no citation. And police officers do it day in and day out, 1 situation at a time.

Is prayer at a government function Illegal. Technically yes. Is prayer hurting anyone at all though? No. So no need to enforce it. If the prayer was asking for harm of someone then I would enforce it.

Is drunk driving hurting people. Yes. There is no excuse to let drunk drivers off the hook. If your drunk and driving you present a physical danger to everyone.

Is rape hurting people. Yes. Rape should also never be overlooked. The emotional damage this causes can last a lifetime.
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  #204  
Old 09-18-2009, 10:22 PM
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Is prayer hurting anyone at all though? No.
That would be an unfounded assumption on your part, and you're still ignoring the nature of legality. Where in your posts can I find this common sence you keep talking about? Perhaps you'd be fine with a 5 minute follow up explaining that the god they just prayed to is completley false, and a list of the many many messianic prophicies jesus did not fullfil, our a reading of the extreamly long list of errors made in the bible so the athiests wont feel left out. After all, that wouldn't hurt anyone now would it? Whatever you're responce it's moot; what your defending is unconstitutional, it's illegal, and it's unethical.
Last edited by Humanistheart; 09-18-2009 at 10:26 PM..
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  #205  
Old 09-18-2009, 10:28 PM
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That would be an unfounded assumption on your part, and you're still ignoring the nature of legality. Where in your posts can I find this common sence you keep talking about?
From Wikipedia: Common sense (or, when used attributively as an adjective, commonsense, common-sense, or commonsensical), based on a strict construction of the term, consists of what people in common would agree on: that which they "sense" as their common natural understanding. Some people (such as the authors of Merriam-Webster Online) use the phrase to refer to beliefs or propositions that — in their opinion — most people would consider prudent and of sound judgment, without reliance on esoteric knowledge or study or research, but based upon what they see as knowledge held by people "in common". Thus "common sense" (in this view) equates to the knowledge and experience which most people allegedly have, or which the person using the term believes that they do or should have.

Ok please explain how prayer is causing you harm.
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  #206  
Old 09-18-2009, 10:32 PM
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

By setting aside government sponsored time for an invocation to a specific deity, the religion of that deity is being established by the government.
Again, a clear violation of the Constitution of the United States. A law so set in stone that a Constitutional Convention would need to be held to even consider changing it. Something that has only been done 17 times in the last 200 yrs since the original Bill of Rights was added.

To ignore this because "it seems trivial" compared to other violations of the law is setting a precedent for other Constitutional Laws to be ignored.

Enochs Straw-man argument about dirty dishes and "other laws" has no bearing on Constitutional Law, and is therefor null and void to the current discussion.
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  #207  
Old 09-18-2009, 10:43 PM
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

By setting aside government sponsored time for an invocation to a specific deity, the religion of that deity is being established by the government.
Again, a clear violation of the Constitution of the United States. A law so set in stone that a Constitutional Convention would need to be held to even consider changing it. Something that has only been done 17 times in the last 200 yrs since the original Bill of Rights was added.

To ignore this because "it seems trivial" compared to other violations of the law is setting a precedent for other Constitutional Laws to be ignored.

Enochs Straw-man argument about dirty dishes and "other laws" has no bearing on Constitutional Law, and is therefor null and void to the current discussion.
Indeed. He's presented no evidence to justify the continued breaking of this law.
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  #208  
Old 09-18-2009, 11:01 PM
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And if you don't want laws to be fully enforced who decides which ones are trivial enough to ignore or partially ignore? How about driving drunk? Many people do it so it must not be that important. What about raping young women? This seems fairly common in college from the stats, that must not be important at all. And there's litter. Who cares if you just dump your trash on the highway as you drive? Big deal right? And it's not just technically against the law, it IS against the law. I soppose you throw in the qualifier there to try to underscore the law itself. Is it merely technically against the law to murder?
Who cares about drunk drivers killing peopole while there are people praying! Come on lets get our priorities straight.

Seriously, lets focus on issues that actually matter instead of worrying about technicalities and offending people, or whatever. Congress can and should continue to pray before the start of the meeting. Who cares? Does that KILL anyone? So you dont get to pray at a school function...does that kill you? So people are slightly offending you by praying and it makes you feel awkward...So? I bet its rather awkward to have somebody praying while you are attending a funeral of a friend killed by a drunk guy who had no way of getting home. So you feel forced to pray? Get over it. I feel forced to shower in freezing showers after practices and gym class with a bunch of sweaty pubescent boys laughing and trying to towel snap your junk. We all can deal with awkwardness. Its life. Dying because an idiot hit you in his car. If you dont get to pray as a group than pray before hand as a group. make do. Adjust to your envoronment. You should be used to it after a billion years of evolving and adapting from apes, right? Why cant we do it now? Or are we too civilized to deal with diferences now
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  #209  
Old 09-18-2009, 11:07 PM
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[quote=shortfade2;1700717]Who cares about drunk drivers killing peopole while there are people praying! Come on lets get our priorities straight.

Ah, you've returned to the 'there are worse things out there' style argument which failed to be justified previously.

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Seriously, lets focus on issues that actually matter instead of worrying about technicalities and offending people, or whatever. Congress can and should continue to pray before the start of the meeting.
Should? I'd ask what you could possibly be basing this usuage of should on but I imagine that will open a can of worms and a new irrelevant tangeant.
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  #210  
Old 09-18-2009, 11:08 PM
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

As long as politicians/students are doing it voluntarily it is Constitutionally legal to pray. So what is the fuss about? It would be illegal to force them to not pray.
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