Have we won the Iraq war? (Earth, incarnation, hell, America)

[PureX]

Originally Posted by kai

I agree here except for the fact the Iraqi government is there by Iraqi consensus and recognised by the UN.

If there were a consensus, they would not still be fighting amongst themselves, and we would have no reason to be there at all. And what government the UN recognizes is irrelevant. One way or another, the Iraqis themselves will have to decide who is going to rule Iraq. And when they do, then they can finally get on with rebuilding.

Originally Posted by kai

... and if there was a civil war you like most people seem to ignore the very existance of the Kurds who are one third of the country. any civil war would mean No Iraq at all in my opinion , just a fractured region with sections in the south influenced by Iran and the sunni sector influenced by Syrria. unable to function as a country at all.

The country may split into several smaller countries. That's true. But endless occupation isn't going to stop this if it is the natural desire of the people who live there. The British imposed the nations borders on those people when they were trying to rule the world, and it took an endless military occupation for them to maintain them. We should have learned a lesson from their mistakes. If we wanted Iraq to remain intact, stable, and powerless, we should have left Saddam in charge. Bush senior understood this, which is why he didn't take Saddam out during the Gulf War. It's also why he stood by and allowed Saddam to gas the Kurds into submission. But Bush junior is such an egotistical moron that he decided he knew better than everyone else, and besides, God told him. So here we are, mired in a situation that we have no possible way of "winning". It's time we face up to the mess that Bush has made, and let the people of that area decide for themselves what the natural order is going to be. Once they do that, we'll have to deal with it from there. But it's time for us to stop trying to control the futures of other nations and peoples, that's what got us into this mess to begin with.

Originally Posted by kai

well if only it was their decision , with such a high turnout at the elections etc they have already made their decision but unfortunately for them other people have other intentions for Iraq.

Yes, welcome to the real world. This is what happens when governments are destroyed. Perhaps if Her Moron Bush had read a book or two in his lifetime, he might have seen this coming.

[kai]

Originally Posted by PureX

If there were a consensus, they would not still be fighting amongst themselves, and we would have no reason to be there at all. And what government the UN recognizes is irrelevant. One way or another, the Iraqis themselves will have to decide who is going to rule Iraq. And when they do, then they can finally get on with rebuilding.
But they already have, you are dismissing the will of the people more people turned out percentage wise in Iraqi elections than ever bother in ours.
The country may split into several smaller countries. That's true. But endless occupation isn't going to stop this if it is the natural desire of the people who live there. The British imposed the nations borders on those people when they were trying to rule the world, and it took an endless military occupation for them to maintain them. We should have learned a lesson from their mistakes. If we wanted Iraq to remain intact, stable, and powerless,

. But Bush junior is such an egotistical moron that he decided he knew better than everyone else, and besides, God told him. So here we are, mired in a situation that we have no possible way of "winning". It's time we face up to the mess that Bush has made, and let the people of that area decide for themselves what the natural order is going to be. Once they do that, we'll have to deal with it from there. But it's time for us to stop trying to control the futures of other nations and peoples, that's what got us into this mess to begin with. interesting idea where did you get that from?


Yes, welcome to the real world. This is what happens when governments are destroyed. Perhaps if Her Moron Bush had read a book or two in his lifetime, he might have seen this coming.

i am talking about the government not iraqs former dictator.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by kai

But they already have, you are dismissing the will of the people more people turned out percentage wise in Iraqi elections than ever bother in ours.

But the elections obviously did not resolve the different faction's desire to rule at least some parts of Iraq. And until these desires are dealt with, probably through violence, Iraq cannot get on with the business of rebuilding.

Originally Posted by PureX

The country may split into several smaller countries. That's true. But endless occupation isn't going to stop this if it is the natural desire of the people who live there. The British imposed the nations borders on those people when they were trying to rule the world, and it took an endless military occupation for them to maintain them. We should have learned a lesson from their mistakes. If we wanted Iraq to remain intact, stable, and powerless, we should have left Saddam in charge. Bush senior understood this, which is why he didn't take Saddam out during the Gulf War. It's also why he stood by and allowed Saddam to gas the Kurds into submission. But Bush junior is such an egotistical moron that he decided he knew better than everyone else, and besides, God told him. So here we are, mired in a situation that we have no possible way of "winning". It's time we face up to the mess that Bush has made, and let the people of that area decide for themselves what the natural order is going to be. Once they do that, we'll have to deal with it from there. But it's time for us to stop trying to control the futures of other nations and peoples, that's what got us into this mess to begin with.

Originally Posted by kai

... interesting idea where did you get that from?

I got it from paying attention to what's happened, and from what the people involved have said about what's happened.

[Shadow Wolf]

I don't see how anyone can win a war that was based on false accusations, bad intelligence, and a mission goal that changed so many times that there really isn't one.

[kai]

Originally Posted by PureX

But the elections obviously did not resolve the different faction's desire to rule at least some parts of Iraq. And until these desires are dealt with, probably through violence, Iraq cannot get on with the business of rebuilding.
thats exactly what the security forces are doing right now
I got it from paying attention to what's happened, and from what the people involved have said about what's happened.

wow thats some acusation you made there about Bush seniors policy. i am glad you were paying attention, thats why the Shia distrust America so much, and Bush Sr wanted Saddam in power all along, amazing stuff.

[kai]

Originally Posted by Luke Wolf

I don't see how anyone can win a war that was based on false accusations, bad intelligence, and a mission goal that changed so many times that there really isn't one.

i dont see how people keep calling it a war when its a security operation, the war was over years ago. the Iraqis have a democratically elected government and once they can handle the likes of Alqueda and sectarian hate groups that are hell bent on derailing it, we are out of there. the war is in Afghanistan.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by kai

Originally Posted by PureX:
"But the elections obviously did not resolve the different faction's desire to rule at least some parts of Iraq. And until these desires are dealt with, probably through violence, Iraq cannot get on with the business of rebuilding."

... thats exactly what the security forces are doing right now.

The "security forces" are PART OF THE FACTIONS THAT ARE VYING FOR POWER. That's why in all these years we still can't trust them to carry out even the most simple security tasks. Don't you even watch the news?
I got it from paying attention to what's happened, and from what the people involved have said about what's happened.

Originally Posted by kai

wow thats some acusation you made there about Bush seniors policy. i am glad you were paying attention, thats why the Shia distrust America so much, and Bush Sr wanted Saddam in power all along, amazing stuff[/color].

That's not even the half of it.

Frontline is the best news documentary producer on TV, and they've done many stories on Iraq. You can see them for free on line, just follow the links:

Bush's War 2008

End Game 2007

Gangs of Iraq 2007

Lost Year in Iraq 2006

The Dark Side 2006

The Insurgency 2006

Private Warriors 2005

Beyond Baghdad 2004

Truth War and Consequences 2003

The War Behind Closed Doors 2003

Frontline has covered every aspect of the gulf wars, in depth, since 1983, and every documentary is available free, on line. They also have covered many other interesting subjects, and they do a superlative job. It's in depth and non biased journalism at it's best.

[Alceste]

Thanks for those, PureX.

[kai]

Originally Posted by PureX

The "security forces" are PART OF THE FACTIONS THAT ARE VYING FOR POWER. That's why in all these years we still can't trust them to carry out even the most simple security tasks. Don't you even watch the news?
I got it from paying attention to what's happened, and from what the people involved have said about what's happened.
That's not even the half of it.

wow theres me thinking we were the security forces and we were training the security forces how wrong can you be , and yes i watch the news as well as spending some time there myself as has my son , my cousin, dozens of friends and my sons friends. some of which are still there. so i have been paying attention too.
Frontline is the best news documentary producer on TV, and they've done many stories on Iraq. You can see them for free on line, just follow the links:

Bush's War 2008

End Game 2007

Gangs of Iraq 2007

Lost Year in Iraq 2006

The Dark Side 2006

The Insurgency 2006

Private Warriors 2005

Beyond Baghdad 2004

Truth War and Consequences 2003

The War Behind Closed Doors 2003

Frontline has covered every aspect of the gulf wars, in depth, since 1983, and every documentary is available free, on line. They also have covered many other interesting subjects, and they do a superlative job. It's in depth and non biased journalism at it's best.

thanks but as soon as i see "Bushs War" as the title it flags up BIAS, but nonetheless i will take a look

[Autodidact]

Originally Posted by kai

thanks but as soon as i see "Bushs War" as the title it flags up BIAS, but nonetheless i will take a look

Whose war do you think it is?