Is Bin Laden Now Innocent Until Proven Guilty? (ritual, beliefs)

[LittlePinky82]

Originally Posted by Autodidact

Yes, and they're a semi-organized, rag-tag and relatively small group of zealots alienated from the world community. C'mon, are you trying to persuade me that the U.S. of A is powerless to defeat Al Qaeda?

You don't seem to have noticed that I'm not the least bit right-wing; I'm the opposite. Go back and read my posts. I'm the Obama-supporting, gay-rights advocating, national health insurance promoting lesbian atheist.

Remember, it was Roosevelt, possibly our most liberal president, who responded effectively to Hitler, and it will take a liberal president named Obama to deal effectively with Al Qaeda. The so-called conservatives presently in office are too stupid and chicken to go after the real enemy.

It's not rocket science. When someone attacks you on your own soil, you have to strike back and go to war against them. I realize this is a new kind of threat, an international terrorist organization rather than a militarized nation, and this will pose new challenges, but I'm confident that we can meet them if we boot the Bozos out of office and get someone with a brain in there.

I should save your post accusing me of right-wing rhetoric and pull it out in many debates with the actual right-wingers here. We'd all get a good laugh out of it.

You are talking like a rightwinger where this is concerned. I don't give a rats butt who you are voting for and what you support. I'm talking about this very subject. Nothing more and nothing less. With this you are like a rightwinger. I can't tell any difference and your political affiliation doesn't mean anything to this pinko. You are thinking about AlQida all wrong. They are not a military. They are a group of people who are spread all over the world. They have no laws. They have no uniform. They have no code of conduct. Nothing like industralized civilizations have. Who is their leadership? Who is doing what? You can't answer those question's can you? And there's no comparison to WWII at all. Hitler was a leader of a country. He had to follow laws. His army had a uniform. They weren't spread all over the world.

[kai]

so little pinky82 what exactly isyour point would you like to sum up , because i am a little lost

[Smoke]

Originally Posted by kai

thank you midnight blue my only critisism of your evidence is that reading the whole of the articles is much more interesting and informative

Nobody denies that there are foreigners among the insurgents, but we've known almost from the beginning that the majority of them are Iraqis, and some politicians dislike admitting that.

[kai]

Originally Posted by MidnightBlue

Nobody denies that there are foreigners among the insurgents, but we've known almost from the beginning that the majority of them are Iraqis, and some politicians dislike admitting that.

yes they do but i have a tendancy to beleive attacks against Iraqi security forces and civilians are criminal,

attacks against coalition forces are generally seen by Iraqis as legitimate mainly because they are not muslims.

Foreign influence is very important in Iraq with AlQueda style politics causing much of the instability, lately the US has had a lot of success with the forming of militias that have taken away the influence of groups like Alqueda, and actually driven them out of enclaves.

one impassioned AlQueda style activist can cause a lot of damage just with his idealism,and undo years of work with ordinary people trying to cling on to the for them "strange idea of an elected form of governent"

[LittlePinky82]

Originally Posted by kai

so little pinky82 what exactly isyour point would you like to sum up , because i am a little lost

1) AlQida is all over the world.

2) They do not have a uniform or tattoos you can identify them as like gangs do.

3) They are not fighting a physical battle but a spiritual one dealing with their ideals and beliefs of the after life.

4) If you kill one it won't matter. They will just keep recruiting.

5) The best way to stop groups like AlQida is to encourage people to not give them money and to show them a better way without violence.

6) Use our laws against people who are members of AlQida and do crimes here. Each country can do that as well to their laws. Look at Britain.

7) This goes a long with five and six. Use stigma to fight them. It has worked in the past. Stigma is putting a negative label on an ideal or an action. Look at OJ Simpson.

[LittlePinky82]

Originally Posted by kai

yes they do but i have a tendancy to beleive attacks against Iraqi security forces and civilians are criminal,

attacks against coalition forces are generally seen by Iraqis as legitimate mainly because they are not muslims.

Foreign influence is very important in Iraq with AlQueda style politics causing much of the instability, lately the US has had a lot of success with the forming of militias that have taken away the influence of groups like Alqueda, and actually driven them out of enclaves.

one impassioned AlQueda style activist can cause a lot of damage just with his idealism,and undo years of work with ordinary people trying to cling on to the for them "strange idea of an elected form of governent"

Except Iraq is actually quite a progressive Muslim country when comparing their neighbors. Before the invasion and occupation there were different religious groups there who worshiped freely. They don't like AlQida there either. The Pentagon has even said AlQida in Iraq is only about 5%. From what I know of Iraq the minute we leave they will ban together and kick out the extremist who are AlQida. They don't want them there either. Actually not in Iraq with AlQida. As I pointed out Iraq is quite progressive and are considered a moderate Muslim country. The only reason why AlQida is in Iraq is because the boarders are very open and easily able to get in. Even if someone is joining AlQida it's not because of ideology but because of an army to help kick out the invadors.

[kai]

Originally Posted by LittlePinky82

1) AlQida is all over the world. i agree

2) They do not have a uniform or tattoos you can identify them as like gangs do. i agree

3) They are not fighting a physical battle but a spiritual one dealing with their ideals and beliefs of the after life. i dont agree they are fighting a physical battle to attain goals

4) If you kill one it won't matter. They will just keep recruiting.I agree

5) The best way to stop groups like AlQida is to encourage people to not give them money and to show them a better way without violence.yes a lot of education is needed in third world countries where AlQueda type propoganda prevails

6) Use our laws against people who are members of AlQida and do crimes here. Each country can do that as well to their laws. Look at Britain. Yes

7) This goes a long with five and six. Use stigma to fight them. It has worked in the past. Stigma is putting a negative label on an ideal or an action. Look at OJ Simpson.

OK but they have Kudos in Waziristan and stigma in the UK

[kai]

Originally Posted by LittlePinky82

Except Iraq is actually quite a progressive Muslim country when comparing their neighbors. Before the invasion and occupation there were different religious groups there who worshiped freely. They don't like AlQida there either. The Pentagon has even said AlQida in Iraq is only about 5%. From what I know of Iraq the minute we leave they will ban together and kick out the extremist who are AlQida. They don't want them there either. Actually not in Iraq with AlQida. As I pointed out Iraq is quite progressive and are considered a moderate Muslim country. The only reason why AlQida is in Iraq is because the boarders are very open and easily able to get in. Even if someone is joining AlQida it's not because of ideology but because of an army to help kick out the invadors.

there are several reasons and several kinds of insurgents in Iraq. taking Al Quedas role is merely to promote their ideological goals . one of which is to kill Shia who they consider apostates, and to prevent them holding power in government.

[Autodidact]

Originally Posted by LittlePinky82

Except Iraq is actually quite a progressive Muslim country when comparing their neighbors. Before the invasion and occupation there were different religious groups there who worshiped freely. They don't like AlQida there either. The Pentagon has even said AlQida in Iraq is only about 5%. From what I know of Iraq the minute we leave they will ban together and kick out the extremist who are AlQida. They don't want them there either. Actually not in Iraq with AlQida. As I pointed out Iraq is quite progressive and are considered a moderate Muslim country. The only reason why AlQida is in Iraq is because the boarders are very open and easily able to get in. Even if someone is joining AlQida it's not because of ideology but because of an army to help kick out the invadors.

Sadly, I think there is a good chance that the minute we leave total civil war will break out until one group has established a firm hold on the power structure. OTOH, our staying there aggravates the hostilities tremendously, so Bush the idiot has created an untenable position for us. On the balance, I think the best we can make out of a bad job is to leave, but I don't think we should fool ourselves that life for the average Iraqi will be peace and roses. The best choice would have been not to invade in the first place, but that choice is gone forever.

[Mathematician]

If Bin Ladin was captured and detained in Gitmo, I'd like to see him put through a fair trial with all the necessary protection. We've done it with past international criminals. What's the problem again? For all we know evidence could come out in court that the person you saw shooting someone else in face was protecting his daughter from a rapist.

Innocent until proven guilty is a slogan worth keeping. Other court systems around the world have flocked towards it in recent years for civil reasons.