I Support Amnesty (America, Zen)

[jonny]

Originally Posted by nutshell

Nice way to avoid the question, Jonny.

There's a difference between eating the fruits/vegies and saying having cheap fruits/vegies is a benefit of having illegals.

So, let me ask you this - if the illegals get amnesty, should they be paid a living wage?

No. They should get a legal wage. Whether or not that is a 'living' wage or the 'minimum' wage is up to the employer.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Victor

I don’t know why people keep talking about “following the rules” when anything that benefits the American economy gets to take the toll roads. Does an athlete go to the back of the line? How about a millionaire?

Do people really care if someone cuts in line? Would they care if it was shown to help the economy? Are they mad at Canadians for coming here illegally? Do people show this much zeal with regard to breaking other rules? Is it really just economical? What about National Security?

I don't buy the national security argument either. What evidence is there that illegal immigration coming predominantly from Latin America, has anything to do with 9/11? It seems more like a convenient excuse.

As for economics, all one need to do is LOOK and SEE who is doing the grunt work in this country, the jobs that no one else wants to do. The people on the very lowest rungs of the service industry who are almost invisible because so many of us don't bother to see them. We see the waiter in the restaurant because he or she takes our order. Do we see the busboy? Or the person in the kitchen doing the heavy lifting and cleaning? Do we see the custodial staff who clean our public toilets? Do we see the people who pick the heads of lettuce under the blistering sun and pluck the chickens in filthy conditions? These are jobs that no one else wants to do. At least not for the wages that are being offered. It may or may not be the case that a poultry "processor" makes at least minimum wage - I haven't checked - but I know damn well without checking the vast majority of us would not do that job for minimum wage or anything near it. Nor would anyone who is legally here. Unless you take that into account, all of the talk about how much illegals "cost" us is hypocritical at best.

Originally Posted by Victor

I’ve been torn with this issue for a long time and from the various discussions and questions I’ve faced; I found that the loss of culture is of the greatest fear to Americans. I know this because one can provide solutions for all the questions and emotion still remains. Why is that?

Fear of loss of culture. That's a polite way to put it.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by lilithu

Fear of loss of culture. That's a polite way to put it.

I try...

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by lilithu

I don't buy the national security argument either. What evidence is there that illegal immigration coming predominantly from Latin America, has anything to do with 9/11? It seems more like a convenient excuse.

I don't think anybody is trying to make the absurd argument that illegal immigration from Latin America has anything to do with 9/11. The argument is that 9/11 is likely not the last attack planned, and having such a porous border makes those plans much easier, contrary to national security interests. If millions of workers can cross the border without being caught, then a few with bad intent have that much better odds.

These are jobs that no one else wants to do. At least not for the wages that are being offered.

And this is where the exploitation of illegal immigrants is key. If employers did not or could not exploit people here illegally to take lower wages, they would be forced to hire citizens. This is where illegal immigration generally hits our own poor citizens the hardest, and business people profit off of their backs. This means our own poor will be more dependent on social programs at the same time those same programs are under strain from non-citizens. It's a clever form of cost shifting in which employers are able to transfer costs to society.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

I don't think anybody is trying to make the absurd argument that illegal immigration from Latin America has anything to do with 9/11. The argument is that 9/11 is likely not the last attack planned, and having such a porous border makes those plans much easier, contrary to national security interests. If millions of workers can cross the border without being caught, then a few with bad intent have that much better odds.

Interestingly enough, it is usually the ones that come in the legal route that have caused more problems. Who'd of thunk?

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

And this is where the exploitation of illegal immigrants is key. If employers did not or could not exploit people here illegally to take lower wages, they would be forced to hire citizens. This is where illegal immigration generally hits our own poor citizens the hardest, and business people profit off of their backs. This means our own poor will be more dependent on social programs at the same time those same programs are under strain from non-citizens. It's a clever form of cost shifting in which employers are able to transfer costs to society.

What are the non-citizens doing that the poor can't? If the non-citizens can live off the wages, why can't our poor?

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

I don't think anybody is trying to make the absurd argument that illegal immigration from Latin America has anything to do with 9/11. The argument is that 9/11 is likely not the last attack planned, and having such a porous border makes those plans much easier, contrary to national security interests. If millions of workers can cross the border without being caught, then a few with bad intent have that much better odds.

Yes, I understand that argument. Yet it doesn't seem to jive with the hatred being displayed towards illegals coming from Latin America. Hatred. The unauthorized militia who are patrolling the borders with automatic weapons in order to "defend our country" are aiming them at Latin Americans, and they know it. Or how about the 60 LAPD who were relieved from duty for using excessive force in breaking up a May Day demonstration? Beating women and kids with batons. What does that have to do with national security?

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

And this is where the exploitation of illegal immigrants is key. If employers did not or could not exploit people here illegally to take lower wages, they would be forced to hire citizens. This is where illegal immigration generally hits our own poor citizens the hardest, and business people profit off of their backs. This means our own poor will be more dependent on social programs at the same time those same programs are under strain from non-citizens. It's a clever form of cost shifting in which employers are able to transfer costs to society.

I agree that there's a great deal of exploitation going on. It does not make any sense to me however to blame the ones who are being exploited. As for us - are we willing to pay the much higher prices that would come with a fair wage?

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by Victor

Interestingly enough, it is usually the ones that come in the legal route that have caused more problems. Who'd of thunk?

Many came legally and simply overstayed visas. Tightening border security would have to include closer monitoring and background checks of those on legal visas as well, of course. It's a whole package.

What are the non-citizens doing that the poor can't?

Mostly avoiding income taxes and insurance costs. Not all of our own poor qualify for the free medical care non-citizens get either, it seems.