I Support Amnesty (America, Zen)

[SoyLeche]

Originally Posted by Luke Wolf

From what I've read, many economist agree America's economy would fail if all illegal immigrants were shipped back.
I still don't think that is a reason to say "You successfully snuck into our nation illegally, here is your citizenship."

Unless, of course, you fill the vacume with legal immigrants.

[Shadow Wolf]

Unless, of course, you fill the vacume with legal immigrants.

Legal immigrants that are willing to do the same jobs for the same wage cuts. Or even native born Americans, but most of these jobs are jobs more people do not want. I haven't read spicifically what kind of jobs, but I can't see them being worse than dripping sweat all over a grill at McDonalds for minimum wage.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by nutshell

But there are standards to that labor.

There shouldn't be. People should be alllowed to sell their labour for whatever they want. If I want to sell my labour for a dollar an hour in tough mines, I should have that right. After all, it's my body I'm subjecting to those conditions. On the other hand, very few people would want to, so if anybody wants to buy labour, they'd better have decent conditions. Look at it this way. Not EVERY job on the market pays minimum wage and has horrid working conditions. This isn't because of laws. Laws give the minimum, and most jobs go above that. It's because the market will not allow, say, doctors to get payed five dollars an hour. No doctor would work for that much.

Otherwise, we coud go back to making children work the coal mines.

Yep, we could.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

Is it best for societies as well? Are we more than an economy? Separate topic, I guess.

Lol. Yeah, I suppose. But an interesting one.

[SoyLeche]

Originally Posted by Luke Wolf

Legal immigrants that are willing to do the same jobs for the same wage cuts. Or even native born Americans, but most of these jobs are jobs more people do not want. I haven't read spicifically what kind of jobs, but I can't see them being worse than dripping sweat all over a grill at McDonalds for minimum wage.

I've been told that most of them aren't being paid less than minimum wage. Every one of these illegal aliens would be willing to come here legally, along with millions of others still waiting to get here illegally.

[SoyLeche]

I found this on another forum and decided to steal it:


http://migration.ucdavis.edu/rmn/more.php?id=529_0_5_0

Farmers received an average 20 percent of each retail dollar spent on food in 2000; the farm share of retail expenditures ranged from a high of 49 percent for beef to a low of five percent for cereal and bakery products. Farmers received an average 16 percent of the retail cost of fresh fruits and 19 percent of the retail cost of fresh vegetables (17 percent of the retail cost of processed fruits and vegetables).


In order to determine how much raising farm worker wages would affect food prices, we have to know: (1) the farmer's share of retail food prices, as well as; (2) what share farm worker wages and benefits are of farmer revenue or costs. For most fruits and vegetables, wages and benefits paid to farm workers are about one-third of a farmer's costs. Thus, farmers who get about $0.16 for a $1 pound of apples, and $0.19 for a $1 head of lettuce, have farm-worker costs of 5-6 cents on a typical $1 retail item of produce.


How much would farm worker wages increase if some of these immigrant workers were not available? In 1966, one year after the end of the bracero program, the fledgling United Farm Workers union won a 40 percent wage increase for table grape harvesters. Average hourly farm-worker earnings were about $7.56 for US field and livestock workers in 2000, according to a USDA survey of farm employers, and another 40 percent increase would raise them to $10.58.


If a 40 percent farm-worker wage increase were fully passed on to consumers, and if there were no farm productivity improvements in response to higher farm wages, the 5-6 cent farm labor cost of a pound of apples or a head of lettuce would rise to 7-8 cents, and the retail price would rise from $1 to $1.02-$1.03.


A large increase in farm wages translates into a small retail cost increase because: (1) farm labor is a third of farmers' costs; and (2) farmers receive only a fraction of the retail price of food. For a typical 2.5-person consumer unit, a 40 percent increase in farm worker wages that led to a three percent increase in retail fresh fruit and vegetable costs would increase the spending of a typical consumer unit by $9 a year, raising expenditures from $301 to $310.

[!Fluffy!]

Originally Posted by jonny

He asked how speeding costs us money. I gave an answer. Your response made no sense. What's there to reply to?

lol, there are (MANY not ALL) speed traps strategically placed to increase revenue. the next town over from us here in SC depends on the revenue from speeding tickets to maintain Main Street. locals usually know where they are and avoid the traps; tourists aren't so lucky.

when i lived in colorado people got a lot of tickets coming down Raton Pass into NM...

[!Fluffy!]

Originally Posted by jonny

I've been listening to the political debate about this immigration plan, and find myself wanting to just give people who are in this country working legal citizenship.

What's wrong with me? It seems like everyone is hating on immigrants. These people came here for the same reason that my ancestors came from Europe - because they wanted a better life. It's not their fault that the US Government decided to close off its borders and make it impossible for people to immigrate here.

1. HATING: "It seems like everyone is hating on immigrants": You're going to have to make up your mind about whether you want to discuss ILLEGAL immigrants or LEGAL immigrants. To assume an opposition to illegal immigration = "hating" is illogical and detrimental to rational discussion.

2. COST: the estimated net cost per illegal household is $2,736. This is only the estimated cost to the Federal government; in reality local communities bear even more of a burden to their infrastructures. From the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS), Washington, DC, see:

The High Cost of Cheap Labor
Illegal Immigration and the Federal Budget
Findings
Balance of Tax and Cost
Illegals Create Large Net Costs
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fis...s.html#Balance

3. SECURITY: by definition an illegal immigrant is undocumented, uninvestigated, unknown, and willing to defy the law.

If you were a serial killer or rapist in Mexico where would you run to escape the law?
If you were a terrorist what would likely be the easiest way to gain entry here?

to assume that all illegal immigrants are hard-working family types is naive.




See Also:

"Prisons, Schools, the Uninsured, and Immigration. There are four areas where the estimated costs illegal households impose are much larger than for other households--treatment for the uninsured, federal aid to schools, federal prisons/courts, and the immigration system."