I Support Amnesty (America, Zen)

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

Mostly avoiding income taxes and insurance costs. Not all of our own poor qualify for the free medical care non-citizens get either, it seems.

Avoiding? Hold on, let me contain myself...*takes a deep breath*

I don't know where people go off saying this. I can't tell you how many people I know (I'm sure lumped in with the 11-12 million) that have gone years without doing their income tax. If you don't have a legal SSN, you can't do your taxes.

How many of the 11-12 million do you think owed on taxes? I'm willing to bet that most of them would have money returned to them and not owe the government a dime. Your lucky if you find most of them making over 15-20,000 a year. So imagine 11-12 million people who didn't get back 500-1,000 refund from the government. Take into consideration that this has been going on for years. How much money you think that is? Do the math...

(NOTE: This has recently changed in California. Illegals can now do their taxes with an ID number)

How many do you think go undiagnosed with cancer and tons of other dieases because they fear they won't get helped?

I'm not trying to say that they are all being good citizens either. I know there are some bad apples that cause a strain on America, but all I'm saying is that it's no worse (if not less) then what we as Americans do to ourselves.

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by lilithu

I hear statements like this on a semi-regular basis and find them hard to believe. Would you have any sources for this?

Hi lilithu. I owe you an answer from yesterday on this. After some research, I could not find a source you would be likely to consider unbiased to support that statement. On the other hand, I did not find a source I consider unbiased to convincingly refute it either, but I will admit to there being plenty of room for doubt on all sides. Critical care institutions are prevented from asking whether patients are of legal status, so we will never know with certainty the magnitude of the drain on taxpayer resources. That makes throwing around unqualified statements about it unwise, so I will retract my statement. Thank you for getting me to revisit some of my assumptions.

[Wandered Off]

Originally Posted by Victor

How many of the 11-12 million do you think owed on taxes? I'm willing to bet that most of them would have money returned to them and not owe the government a dime. Your lucky if you find most of them making over 15-20,000 a year. So imagine 11-12 million people who didn't get back 500-1,000 refund from the government. Take into consideration that this has been going on for years. How much money you think that is? Do the math...

The average hourly wage for Mexican immigrant males aged 23-27 with only 4 years of schooling = $8.44. Source. I’ll start with that as my “typical” person.

If we say he works 40 hours a week, that comes to an annual salary of $16,880. I would expect actual hours to be more than 40 per week, but I would also expect the jobs to be less steady, which factors would offset each other to some degree. In any case, my result fits neatly into the range you mentioned.

FICA/OASDI rate = 7.650 % (employee’s portion that would be deducted), which reduces taxable income by $1,291. Source.

Standard deduction 2006 form 1040 = $5,150, assuming filing as single, which I assume to be typical. Source.

We are left with $10,439 taxable income. I conveniently assume away stock sales, itemized deductions, and the like, which is not all that far-fetched for this income bracket.

According to the 2006 tax tables, the tax owed would be $1,186. Source.

I acknowledge that my assumptions could be shot full of holes, but so could the unmentioned assumptions you used to arrive at a refund of $500 - $1,000.

[alwayswondering]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

According to the 2006 tax tables, the tax owed would be $1,186. Source.

So now let's multiply that $1,186 debt to the government by 11 or 12 million illegal immigrants....

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

The average hourly wage for Mexican immigrant males aged 23-27 with only 4 years of schooling = $8.44. Source. I’ll start with that as my “typical” person.

If we say he works 40 hours a week, that comes to an annual salary of $16,880. I would expect actual hours to be more than 40 per week, but I would also expect the jobs to be less steady, which factors would offset each other to some degree. In any case, my result fits neatly into the range you mentioned.

FICA/OASDI rate = 7.650 % (employee’s portion that would be deducted), which reduces taxable income by $1,291. Source.

Standard deduction 2006 form 1040 = $5,150, assuming filing as single, which I assume to be typical. Source.

We are left with $10,439 taxable income. I conveniently assume away stock sales, itemized deductions, and the like, which is not all that far-fetched for this income bracket.

According to the 2006 tax tables, the tax owed would be $1,186. Source.

I acknowledge that my assumptions could be shot full of holes, but so could the unmentioned assumptions you used to arrive at a refund of $500 - $1,000.

1) It's unlikely most of them file as "single".
2) The $500-$1,000 (sometimes even more) was arrived at by the legal immigrants who are in a similar situation (financially and status wise) as those who are illegal.
3) I'm quite content that a simple visit to your local tax preparer would shed some light as to whether most "Mexicans" owe money or not.

But what do I know, I only live with them.

[Wandered Off]

I think the lesson learned here is that assumptions can skew the numbers either way, and because of the 'undocumentedness' we will never know with certainty. At least I hope to have shown how some of us "go off saying this."

For me, even if Victor's assumptions are more correct than mine, illegal immigration still seems to be a clever form of corporate welfare that ends up exploiting the illegal immigrants and hurting our own citizens on the lower end of the wage scale.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Wandered Off

I think the lesson learned here is that assumptions can skew the numbers either way, and because of the 'undocumentedness' we will never know with certainty. At least I hope to have shown how some of us "go off saying this."

For me, even if Victor's assumptions are more correct than mine, illegal immigration still seems to be a clever form of corporate welfare that ends up exploiting the illegal immigrants and hurting our own citizens on the lower end of the wage scale.

If my assumptions are correct, how then is it a "corporate welfare"?