Do Atheists believe in free-will? (choices, choice, evolution, doctrine)

[s2a]

Originally Posted by Rolling_Stone

Consistent.Inconsistent

Amorphous, and pointless.

I'd also say "sophomoric", but that's just too easy...

[TurkeyOnRye]

Free-will is an illusion and is thus a pointless question to ask if one believes in it. Why?

Choice revolves around the concept of cause and effect. There is always a cause for every decision we make and free-will basically tries to eliminate the concept of cause in relation to the decision-making process. Free-will just doesn't work. I think Anyone who studies psychology will probably come to the same conclusion.

[Willamena]

illusions exist.

If they didn't, they couldn't fool you.

[Autodidact]

I often see these "Do atheists believe in..." threads, and get the impression that some theists see atheism as a religious belief system with a set of doctrines, arguments about doctrine, etc. But it isn't. It's just lack of belief in the existence of God. In general , the term "believe in" is ambiguous, referring both to belief that something exists, and placing faith and confidence in something, as for example a doctrine.

So, speaking only for myself, I ffind that question kind of difficult and am not exactly sure what people mean by "free will." I've always agreed with AFAICR Cicero, who basically asked: what difference would it make?

I'm starting to think it's linked to our naive dualism, that all of us tend to think in terms of an invisible spirit or soul that inhabits our physical bodies. So free will would mean that regardless of what's going on physically, our soul is still in charge and can make decisions. But I don't think there is any such thing. I think our bodies is all we are, and everything we are is material and real. Looked at that way, sure, we have free will. What I mean is, by "I" I mean my body and its processes. Choosing is an activity/process of my brain. Which is real, and happens. So I do see us as having free will.

I think others disagree, however. That does not make them any less True Atheists than me.

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by SPLogan

Do Atheists believe in free-will?
Why or why not?

Everyone believes in free will, elst they couldn't operate in this world.

[Fluffy]

I personally do not believe in free will because I don't consider it to be a coherent concept. I feel that free will requires 2 conditions that cannot both be satisfied simultaneously: control and freedom. I disagree with the typical way of discrediting free will i.e. via determinism because I don't think that this is sufficiently comprehensive nor necessary. Free will is incoherent regardless of the kind of world that we live in.

Those are just my views, however, and not necessarily the views of most atheists. However, I do not know of an atheist who has studied the mind and concluded that we do, in fact, have free will whilst, conversely, I know of many atheistic experts on the mind who all dispute its existence for various reasons.

Also you should be careful about asking questions about what atheists believe. The famous saying is that herding atheists is a bit like herding cats. We don't agree on anything beyond a lack of God and whilst it might be reasonable to assume that some general trends will form because of this, I would generally bank on getting as many different answers as there are atheists.

Edit: Oh yeah, as Willamena says, I do actually believe in free will, I just also believe that I am deluded in this matter and that the delusion is so strong that I am unable to give it up. I'd give you frubals for reminding me but you've already used up your frubal-for-being-brilliant quota for now .

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Fluffy

I personally do not believe in free will because I don't consider it to be a coherent concept. I feel that free will requires 2 conditions that cannot both be satisfied simultaneously: control and freedom. I disagree with the typical way of discrediting free will i.e. via determinism because I don't think that this is sufficiently comprehensive nor necessary. Free will is incoherent regardless of the kind of world that we live in.

Fascinating. If you believe you are not in control, and (presumably) that the universe is, do you attribute all you believe to this other control? Conversely, if you believe you have no freedom, do you have the freedom to believe?

Edit note on edit note: No, you're not deluded.

[Fluffy]

Originally Posted by Willamena

Fascinating. If you believe you are not in control, and (presumably) that the universe is, do you attribute all you believe to this other control? Conversely, if you believe you have no freedom, do you have the freedom to believe?

I do not think I have any freedom at all because I don't think that both my freedom and my control of my actions can be coherently asserted. To explain in more detail:
What causes my choices?
If the answer is "nothing" then I am completely spontaneous and so I do not appear to have any control. I am completely free but am not really choosing any more than a dice chooses.
If the answer is "something" then I am completely controlled by this external influence and so my choice is predetermined before I have made it. There is no sense in which my choice is free.
If the answer is "a mixture" then I have a limited amount of freedom but this does not provide me with any control.

I am not entirely certain who or what is in control. Is a dice in control of what side it lands on? If not, then what is in control? The universe? It seems strange to say that the universe is in control of the dice. It is certainly not in control in the sense implied by "free will".

I do not believe I have the freedom to believe. However, I do believe that belief is mutable and that through processes such as brain training or gaining new concepts, I can change my beliefs but my decision to do so is not really me decision but predetermined by what has come before.

I live my life as if I did have free will because I find the belief in free will to be incorrigible. If a car is coming towards you, you will jump out of the way regardless of whether you think the car is real. I will jump out of the way regardless of whether I think my decision to do so is real.

In one sense, I guess, I do surrender myself to the universe. I believe strongly in the idea and power of inevitability. I feel that whatever will come, is going to come but my very presence in the world allows me to act in order to change this outcome to cohere more with what I want. Of course, this is inevitable and no real change is occurring. However, my existence is what is meaningful since my actions all follow, inevitably, on from that.

Originally Posted by Willamena

Edit note on edit note: No, you're not deluded.

ooo I don't know. I reckon delusion might fit the bill. I reckon if you believe something, realise that the belief is wrong and yet are unable to give that belief up then that might qualify as a delusion. Perhaps delusion should be reserved for the person who is unaware that they are wrong but I think this comes fairly close.