Rama (aka Frederick Lenz) (ritual, incarnation, spiritual)

[The Black Whirlwind]

does anyone know about this guy? my aunt follows his cult.

[kreeden]

Hadn't heard of him untill now . But the use of the name of Vishnu's last incarnation kinda caught my attention . So I did a quick search . You likely know that he is dead ? But his site is going strong .. http://www.fredericklenz.com/

And to balance it out , these guys always have interesting things to say .. http://skepdic.com/rama.html .


For this post , I'll add a sig .
______________________________________
The truth is usually somewhere in the middle ...

[Master Vigil]

Judging by his stance and body arrangement in the martial arts picture, he doesn't seem like a good martial artist. And they make it seem amazing that he got his black belt in high school. So do 5 million other kids. Actually one of the best martial artists in my school got his black belt when he was 10. As for the rest of the site. He certainly doesn't seem to be an amazing spiritual teacher. But thats just my opinion.

[The Black Whirlwind]

theres a bunch of info on http://www.trancenet.org/crazyfred/RLDDHOME.shtml about how he's a sexual predator, among other things.

[David40]

Originally Posted by The Black Whirlwind

theres a bunch of info on RLDD about how he's a sexual predator, among other things.

I studied with him. He died in 1998. I fully accept his Enlightenment although I am also aware of all the controversy surrounding him. I have come to see that being Enlightened and behaving in what humans would describe as an exemplary fashion are two completely different things. Some people misinterpret this position of mine (which I have stated elsewhere to friends even though I'm new to posting here) as implying that somehow I believe the Enlightened are exempt from the usual standards of human behavior. Not so. When Rama was alive, if he acted like an a***ole, which at times he did, I dealt with him in the same way that I dealt with any other a***ole. But I could still learn from him in the process.

[ayani]

Originally Posted by David40

I studied with him. He died in 1998. I fully accept his Enlightenment although I am also aware of all the controversy surrounding him. I have come to see that being Enlightened and behaving in what humans would describe as an exemplary fashion are two completely different things. Some people misinterpret this position of mine (which I have stated elsewhere to friends even though I'm new to posting here) as implying that somehow I believe the Enlightened are exempt from the usual standards of human behavior. Not so. When Rama was alive, if he acted like an a***ole, which at times he did, I dealt with him in the same way that I dealt with any other a***ole. But I could still learn from him in the process.

ok... can i ask a question or two?

what is enlightenment exactly? is it possible to be enlightened and still be a jerk to others? i was under the impression that "enlightenment" involved an opening of the mind to compassion and selflessness.

not to say anyone is perfect, no. but i'm curious as to how you understand "enlightenment". many "teachers" that are on the curcuit / internet these days seem to come across as controling, very image-conscious, and argumentative. are these traits kind of neccesary, or do they get looked over by students?

[David40]

Originally Posted by gracie

ok... can i ask a question or two?

what is enlightenment exactly? is it possible to be enlightened and still be a jerk to others? i was under the impression that "enlightenment" involved an opening of the mind to compassion and selflessness.

not to say anyone is perfect, no. but i'm curious as to how you understand "enlightenment". many "teachers" that are on the curcuit / internet these days seem to come across as controling, very image-conscious, and argumentative. are these traits kind of neccesary, or do they get looked over by students?

I define Enlightenment as the complete awareness of life without mental modification. This does indeed seem to allow greater access to compassionate and selfless states of mind but it equally seems to allow greater access to "jerk"/"a***ole" states of mind. If you catch the Enlightened teacher on a good day they will be compassionate beyond words and if you catch them on a bad day they will be the biggest jerk you ever met. In my experience it is appropriate to always be on your guard around them and to respond in the appropriate human manner to however they might be acting at the moment.

In any event, my relationship with an Enlightened teacher is that they are a teacher of meditation. Nothing more. Nothing less. I go to an Enlightened teacher to learn how to meditate. I don't go to them for compassion. If I want compassion I would turn to a friend. An Enlightened teacher is not a friend. An Enlightened teacher is a teacher of meditation.

An Enlightened teacher isn't there to teach you how to be a decent person. That is the job of your parents. If your parents didn't do such a good job and you have already reached adulthood, well, it isn't the Enlightened teacher's job to fill in as surrogate parent.

[MysticSang'ha]

You know, I'd kind of been waiting to have a Buddhist come in to RF and sort of shake things up. We Buddhists here on RF are normally a rather boring lot since we've mostly agreed on everything so far with each other.




David, can you embellish on some of Rama Lenz's key points in his teachings?



Peace,
Mystic