What do you do with magick?

[beenherebeforeagain]

Originally Posted by jasonwill2

Because shooting people is harder and more risky. But if I could 100% get away with it without anyone ever knowing I would totally shoot people instead of putting death curses on them.



I meant perfectly as in it is perfectly possible to do so. Also gravity IS the warping of space-time.



Too many factors. Couldn't it just be that your toss is more dependent on how you learned to toss (arc, strenght, ect ect) combined with air density, and a bunch of other factors as to how it falls?

Casting shells sounds hopelessly inaccurate as it relies on you to see patterns where there is none.

Why not just cut out the middle man and contact the spirit directly? Why in the first place be as unaware to not use critical thinking to make your decisions about if x person is right for you or not? I'm a Satanist so I make my own decisions, I don't let some punk-*** spirit decide it for me. I do only the will of two things: Satan's and myselfs. And the only time Satan ever wants me to do something is always just him helping me work towards my greater goal.

Satan's will is that I fulfill my will. So he helps me on the path I CHOSE, not the one some random spirit chose for me. Spirits are dead people, so they are inherently selfish and Satanic creatures out to control the living, as are all lesser gods (Satan and his various forms being the greater gods).

Just look at most of the world religions, lesser gods telling people how to live, dress, and behave... it's all so the god and his minions can control you... only Satan is true freedom.

Okay, so that sounds like a long way of agreeing with me that your view of the world is much different than mine. Glad to see you're comfortable with your own beliefs; I'm comfortable with mine, thank you very much.

My point, related to the topic of this discussion, is that MY view of magic, it's purpose, and effects, is very different than yours, and of others.

[Sylvan]

Originally Posted by jasonwill2

it relies on you to see patterns where there is none.

Again, this is a heart of a great mystery. Which you are avoiding, but that's cool. Please avoid Satanic Evangelism in the Neopagan DIR, its unseemly.

[Quintessence]

Originally Posted by beenherebeforeagain

That of course assumes that physical violence against person or property actually "works" to change whatever behavior you're trying to modify--which from a glance at the daily police blotter would suggest rarely works as intended, causes much dissension and consternation, and often has what medically we might call "side effects" that are otherwise undesirable...lawsuits, jail time, visits to the emergency room, etc.

Touche, and an excellent point. I'd give you a frubal if the system let me.

[beenherebeforeagain]

Originally Posted by Quintessence

Touche, and an excellent point. I'd give you a frubal if the system let me.

Thanks, Q, I appreciate the nod.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by beenherebeforeagain

Allow me to interject, speaking as an animist: the shells are spirits. Gravity is spirits. The air is a spirit. the surface is a spirit. Fate is a spirit. Time (present, future, etc.) is a (or many) spirits. There are other spirits as well. Your throw is part of the package that results in a particular result, affected by many spirits, any or all of whom can affect the outcome.

But, if you don't believe in spirits, then that explanation won't make sense. No problem with me.

Do you think that these spirits can express their will in measurable ways? For instance, if we were under lab conditions wuth a smoke plume flowing through a column of air, would you be able to influence the will of the air so that smoke behaves differently as it flows through that air in an observable way?

[beenherebeforeagain]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

Do you think that these spirits can express their will in measurable ways? For instance, if we were under lab conditions wuth a smoke plume flowing through a column of air, would you be able to influence the will of the air so that smoke behaves differently as it flows through that air in an observable way?

Do I think so? Yes. that has been my experience. Can I convince them to do so on a reliable basis, especially for something so seemingly pointless as empirically demonstrating their existence under laboratory conditions? I doubt it. That's what I mean by volition: they choose to do so or not; I can only ask and encourage.

They also don't seem to be as favorable to helping when it is a request to take advantage of them for my own benefit, such as, for example, to win the lottery. However, it occurs to me that in situations like that, a great many other people are all trying to influence the outcome in their own favor as well...the end result may well be little different than random chance.

[Storm]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

Do you think that these spirits can express their will in measurable ways?

Can? Sure. Question is, why WOULD they?

For instance, if we were under lab conditions wuth a smoke plume flowing through a column of air, would you be able to influence the will of the air so that smoke behaves differently as it flows through that air in an observable way?

Can't answer this for anyone else, but I've never been particularly interested in parlor tricks.

Furthermore, I have a different philosophy on magic, it seems. Must catch up on the conversation before elaborating.

[Sylvan]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

Do you think that these spirits can express their will in measurable ways? For instance, if we were under lab conditions wuth a smoke plume flowing through a column of air, would you be able to influence the will of the air so that smoke behaves differently as it flows through that air in an observable way?

I told this story before. When young I taught a buddy of mine who was raised pure scientific materialist but had some openmindedness (yoga, Robert Anton Wilson, ..er.. etc...) the basics of sigil magic. He liked the chaos magic attitude and gave it a try, surprised to find out how well it worked. Skip to a few years later.. he is in the last semester of a brutal bio-chemistry track and is convinced to drop out of school after its over.. just doesn't care about science enough. The endless lab work was driving him insane. So he decided screw it, I'm gonna see how fast I can get out of here.. and used the various keys in the lab documents to sigilize for quick success at whatever the task was at hand instead of doing his homework. He claimed to ALWAYS get out first, always have his reagent reach the exact level of concentration.. etc. He got a terrible grade but always finished his lab first so he could get right to drinking. Do I think his results could be replicated in the conditions necessary for scientific proof? Not a chance. But it worked pretty well for him. That wasn't about spirits necessarily... but applicable.

[beenherebeforeagain]

Originally Posted by Sylvan

I told this story before. When young I taught a buddy of mine who was raised pure scientific materialist but had some openmindedness (yoga, Robert Anton Wilson, ..er.. etc...) the basics of sigil magic. He liked the chaos magic attitude and gave it a try, surprised to find out how well it worked. Skip to a few years later.. he is in the last semester of a brutal bio-chemistry track and is convinced to drop out of school after its over.. just doesn't care about science enough. The endless lab work was driving him insane. So he decided screw it, I'm gonna see how fast I can get out of here.. and used the various keys in the lab documents to sigilize for quick success at whatever the task was at hand instead of doing his homework. He claimed to ALWAYS get out first, always have his reagent reach the exact level of concentration.. etc. He got a terrible grade but always finished his lab first so he could get right to drinking. Do I think his results could be replicated in the conditions necessary for scientific proof? Not a chance. But it worked pretty well for him. That wasn't about spirits necessarily... but applicable.

well, there are spirits, and then there are spirits, and spirits is/are spirits as well. alcohol is pretty nasty in great quantities, but in small amounts quite useful.

[jasonwill2]

Originally Posted by beenherebeforeagain

Okay, so that sounds like a long way of agreeing with me that your view of the world is much different than mine. Glad to see you're comfortable with your own beliefs; I'm comfortable with mine, thank you very much.

My point, related to the topic of this discussion, is that MY view of magic, it's purpose, and effects, is very different than yours, and of others.

Hmmm... good point. I apologize for my previous attitude.

Originally Posted by Sylvan

Again, this is a heart of a great mystery. Which you are avoiding, but that's cool. Please avoid Satanic Evangelism in the Neopagan DIR, its unseemly.

I wasn't trying to convert anyone, as this is a topic about our views on magic, a lot of people are going to disagree. Take any other Satanist (or most of anyone) out of the LHP DIR and there is a 99.9% chance they will fundamentally disagree with me on magic.

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

Do you think that these spirits can express their will in measurable ways? For instance, if we were under lab conditions wuth a smoke plume flowing through a column of air, would you be able to influence the will of the air so that smoke behaves differently as it flows through that air in an observable way?

I would assume it would be in a measurable way, otherwise you couldn't physically see the results. I've thought of doing Divination via smoke before, but I see it as purely a way to "jump-start" the pattern seeking parts of my brain to make some self-discovery by going into over-drive in making intuitive jumps until something clicks. Think of a guy that is convinced something is buried in his yard... by sheer chance alone there probably is, but it's most likely not what he expected. Then after I get that self-discovery I run it against my analytical processes (kind of like a filtration system for sorting out real revelations from bull) and compare it to what I already know of myself to see if it really holds up.

Originally Posted by Storm

Can? Sure. Question is, why WOULD they?


Can't answer this for anyone else, but I've never been particularly interested in parlor tricks.

Furthermore, I have a different philosophy on magic, it seems. Must catch up on the conversation before elaborating.

It has occurred to me right now 2 things:

1) It is more than "parlor tricks", it is proving to the world that we are not a joke... that this is real.

2) If it was proven it was real scientifically, said spirits would constantly get harassed by easily millions upon millions of people... imagine how annoying that would be! Perhaps Loki, Apollo, Shiva, ect ect want the status quo of a more manageable number of followers to attend to. I mean look at how many people Jesus needs to work with... that is a lot of strain for one god/spirit...

Kind of reminds me how in Star Wars the Sith Lords were more powerful when all of the Darkside was only being channeled through one or two... which is why when Luke Skywalker had all the Lightside going through him he could defeat the bad guys as it was halved through each of them... or so a retcon tells us. Perhaps the gods want to channel all their energies into a handful of dedicated followers, and this is only possible when not everyone is trying to get their help constantly?