vendors at Pow-wows? (ritual, America, spiritual, religion, devil)

[kreeden]

No Seraphimfire , Eagles are well protected , unlike Bears . And that is my concern . If they couldn't get away with using chicken feathers and there was a market for the Eagle feathers .... Hundrads , if not thousands of bears are killed every year , just for their galls .

I am hoping that Painted Wolf will reply . I would very much like to hear his views on the matter . { even if he tells me I'm full of it **

[seraphimfire]

To Master Vigil, just a comment, I am a brother and son to the Spirit Wind(John3:8).
Kreeden, I am saddened of what you say about the slaughter of bears!! It is a sickening thing to me and like the buffalo, animals of various species are going extinct! Where will it all stop??
I also have heard that Painted Wolf may be female???
Anyway;
Peace to all

[kreeden]

Ok , even if she tells me I'm full of it .

Thanks for the correction Seraphimfire . It can be hard to tell on these forums .

As for the slaughter , it will stop when there is no longer a demand . Dry Bear gall is worth more then gold on the Chinese black market ... don't recall the price off hand . Things are improving though . People are speaking out and governments are hearing .

[Michelle]

well let me start by saying that Native American is a catch all phrase that was invented to distinquish North American Indians from Indians . However, there are many different tribes and customs. Most of the Tribes considered the Eagle Feather sacred as it was the closest one could get to the Great Spirit (God). But the Movies that show warriors and chiefs running around with a head band of Feathers is mostly fiction. There is some truth to it but a headband was very much an individual thing. And you saw many kinds and material.
As far as your bear gall it is my understanding there are some tribes in Alaska and Canada that do supple the Asian market with bear gall. But from what I can tell Painted Wolf is Tsa-la-gi which would have nothing to do with the bear galls.
But overall as a generalization the Tribes of North America placed a high value on animals. You could only kill what you blessed, and then it was for food and clothing.

[kreeden]

I'm sorry if I mislead anyone with the talk about Bear gall . I was just using it as an excample of what can happen it there is a demand for it . I NEVER mean to imply that the hunting of bears for the gall was being done by any one race or culture .

Michelle , the only connection that I see with Eagle feathers and Bear gall is that both are used in a culture's tradition . The Gall in traditional Chinese medicine . Now , I have no doubt that there are First Nation people who sell it on the black market . Hey , people are people not matter what culture they belong to . There are the " good and bad ". However , I am also sure that as many , if not more of the people hunting bear for that black market are not First Nation . I could be wrong , but I do not believe that there are any " trides " that supply the market . It would be illegal , even with their Rights to hunt . Just as it is illegal for a First Nation person to kill an Eagle .

The thing is , it doesn't matter who kills the animal , it ends up dead . And I'm just talking about the market here . Well , the market , waste , and a over demand , which is what I think would happen if people demanded real Eagle feathers on their nic-nacs , which are quite different in my opion then a sacred object , I think . I believe that Painted Wolf's concern is how these " toys " take away from the real thing . But I am assuming here . It is a concern that I agree with . I just don't know what could be done , without making matters worst .

[seraphimfire]

Sorry Michelle! I know a lot of tribes get ticked off if called "Native American" so I will try in the future to say politically correct terminology! My very good friend who is living now in Nowatta,Oklahoma has tryed to break me of that habit!! Oh well, my dislexia is getting better! Thank you for explaining to those maybe reading this thread that the Hollywood headress are bogus in their extreams! One or two eagle feathers were worn ocasionally and each feather was "erned" at least by certain tribes.
The blessing is very important part of the hunt and I am now mostly vegitarian with the exception of fish and fishing I don't hunt for larger animals with the availiabliity of so much vegitation.
Thank you for all your knowledge in the posts!
Peace

[kreeden]

I had to look Tsa-la-gi up . Cool . I have a friend in Seattle who is Cherokee .

She also doesn't care for the term " Native American ". But here , many people also don't care for the term " Indian ". { we have a rather large population of Indo-Canadians ** . So the politicaly correct term here in Canada is First Nations People { or Person ** . A little heavy on the political side mind you , but it is perfered . http://www.afn.ca/Assembly_of_First_Nations.htm

Just thought that I would explain my use of the term .

Also , to farther explain my question about the Pow-wow , here a Potlatch often appears to have more significance , although I have heard of a Potlatch being refered to as a Pow-wow . I have also heard Sundances being refered to as a Pow-wow ?

Michelle , Pianted Wolf , I'm not trying to tell you how you , or anyone for that matter , should ran their lifes or how they should live , what they should believe . I realize that the indigenous people of North Ammerica were Nations . They had different cultures , languages , customs . I am just hoping to get a broader view of what they are today .

This is an important issue . In fact , this issue was what got me to join this forum . The only reason I joined really . So I am very interested in what your views are ...

[painted wolf]

Hello all.. sorry it took me so long to get to this thread! I had feared that it was going to be just me for quite a while. I'm glad I was wrong!

Kreeden, unless you said something truely insulting I would never tell you that you are full of it... questions are how we learn. And yes, I am indeed a she.

For names, what we call ourselves is just another label in my view. I know many NA's that hate the pretentious nature of Native American, and I know many that hate the long history of bigotry associated with Indian. However Indian and Native American are used interchangably in my area as we seldom care about 'political correctness', except when talking about 'tribes' where we prefer the term 'nations' (many times at public functions 'first nations' is used as a catch all term) as that is what we are. This may be in part due to our close assiciation with Canada, and it may be because it gives people a better idea of just how important ones 'tribe' is. Not simply a club but a free indipendant and self governing group of people united by language, culture and spirituality... a Nation.

I would define a 'Pow-wow" as any large gathering for mostly social reasons. While ceremony can and often does go allong with this, when don't they with us?
To me 'pow-wows' are mostly open to the public as a place to come and learn about our still living culture. They are places to meet far removed firends, to dance and sing and pray. At its heart the Sundance is a sacred ceremony that is for the partisipants and perhaps a few chosen observers only... I think that giving the Sundance a carnival atmosphere cheepens it to spectical. The same would go for any sacred ceremony IMHO. At a 'Pow-wow' most of the dancing is either style danceing such as the jingle dance, social dancing such as the snake dance or 'intertribal' where everyone is allowed to join in and dance as they please.

Perhaps a discussion of the use of animal parts would be best for another thread... However as it relates to Pow-wow, we usually have a vendor with us who sells animal parts. Pow-wow organizers try to be very carefull about who they choose to do this. And as for getting away with chicken feathers... the use of painted faux eagle feathers in costume is far different from the use of them in ceremony... chicken feathers are no substitute.

Ah, and yes, I am Cherokee. Though I'm not an 'offical' tribe member as I have no government card. (But again that is another issue )

wa:do

[kreeden]

Thank you for your reply Painted Wolf .

I agree about the " labels ". I would prefer just to use the word people myself . But I gyess in a discussion ... there is a need for some labels .

I also understand and agree that a " carnival atmosphere " does cheapen any scared ceremony . And the fact that there is much more to Eagle then the fact that he flies so high . I'm sorry if I got the subject a little off topic . It wasn't my intent , only trying to make a point .

As for not having a card ... it is only a card . I have known many , with and without cards . The important thing is that this appears to be something close to your heart .

And I'm not sure where to go from here . I guess that I'm looking for an answer to a problem that most likely doesn't have a single answer . I keep asking " What can be done ", but know that if anyone had that answer , it would have been done by now .

Over the years I have watched friends try to regain their traditions , their culture . Often I have seen them take customs from other Nations , for theirs have been lost . So much has been lost , on so many levels ...

I see the sharing of a culture as a good thing . Only by understanding can we respect something . However , by sharing , one runs the risk of having that which was shared being twisted into something it never was . That is the nature of a gift . Once given we loss control over it . But the giving is ... well , giving is so important in First Nation Cultures that I don't think that I have to explain it to you .

As I said , I don'y know where to go from here . Perhaps this would have been better discussed under your thread about " Plastic Shamans " ? I believe that the two topics are tied together . But it is good to have finually met you .